- cross-posted to:
- fuckcars@lemmy.ca
- science@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- fuckcars@lemmy.ca
- science@lemmy.ml
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“Small price to pay for the freedom to travel”
-An actual thing that’s been said to me before when I brought up other environmental issues
Nothing says “freedom” like a tool that costs tens of thousands to buy and thousands every year to maintain and use.
Meanwhile I can amtrak to DC for $30 round trip 🤷
From where?
This statement doesn’t make much sense without context.
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58cent is IRS estimate which is under estimating the cost inherently due to state bias.
Also, not even accounting for crazy car prices recently
And parking and sitting in traffic
deleted by creator
What costs are you adding for a train…
Asking for a friend
Sure, but I’m not disclosing my location on Lemmy. 🤷
I’m sure a bit of diddling on their site could give you an idea of how far $X will get you.
Also the traveling part is generally tedious, uncomfortable and boring unless you have a super big luxury car. I’d much rather travel by high-speed rail.
I looove taking the train, I can stand up, move around, chat, eat and drink.
I was hanging out in the Cafe car a few weeks ago on a 9 hr trip playing video games on my laptop. Got chatting with some folks, 3 of us one by one broke out our respective liquors and made a party of it.
Can’t do that on I-95.
I was hanging out in the Cafe car a few weeks ago on a 9 hr trip playing video games on my laptop. Got chatting with some folks, 3 of us one by one broke out our respective liquors and made a party of it.
Can’t do that on I-95.
sure you can they just take away your driving license after
Only if they catch you!
Our freedom to travel was stolen from us and sold back to us
“Small price to pay for the freedom to travel”
Well, they pay a small price for their freedom to travel. It’s everybody else that has to suffer the externalities of their choices.
Let’s tax antisocial behavior, so that these externalities are internalized. Carbon tax, vehicle weight per passenger tax, vehicle volume per passenger tax, etc.
‘Be careful now, you’re starting to sound like a communist.’ they say.
Seriously though, you’re right, we should do all that. Switching over to EVs won’t solve very many problems. Everywhere needs to have fewer vehicles in the road and that’s public transit.
Fuck them.
They also call me a communist now because I think a 40 hour work week should put a basic roof (efficiency on your own or maybe a basic 2br with a roomie) over your head no matter what you’re doing.
Turns out the “Red Scare™” will always return whenever capitalism starts fraying at the seams to keep people from exploring even the slightest reforms.
40 hour work week
Hell with that, make it more like 20…
Small price to pay for the freedom to travel
my man you go to work and back again what travel
Yep. Whenever I travel I ask around my friend group if anyone is interested and those same people always have a list of excuses as to why they can’t take a week to fuck off in NYC.
I really think alot of it is “I can’t take my car 😭,” cause I’ve gone with them to things all the time on road trips, but as soon as I’m taking a train the excuses roll in.
It’s not even a freedom to travel… It’s a requirement. You want to live in area where you don’t need need a car? Only a few cities in America make that reality possible. If you want/have to live/work anywhere else… You need a car. That’s not freedom. Also those places where you don’t need a car are very expensive to live in.
Its not a lack of rails and light rails… It’s a lack of local transportation that’s fast and reliable.
People actually use the bus system in Ann Arbor because it runs on time, frequently and is clean. I’m all for a transportation haven but a lot of cities can’t even walk and are trying to run.
Detroits Q Line is a good example of running before you can walk. The bus system is god awful. Late. No shows. Generally unreliable. Then they just slapped a thing on top of it that’s probably even less reliable…
It is in fact a privillege to live a normal life in US without a car…
Can we just get some real public transportation options in the USA? I’ve visited Washington D.C., Boston, and New York City recently, and I’m in love with the subway (etc). Where I live would still require a car, but afaik, none of the major cities around me have anything more than a lackluster bus system.
Best we can do is another lane on the highway. That should fix the problem!
Ok, hear me out: What if we were to dig a system of narrow tunnels under the city, and then let people drive through them. Of course, cars would need to be on some form of automated tracks to make it safe. Then you could link up multiple cars and make long lines of cars following the tracks to the same destination.
It’s a brand new concept, I know, but modern problems require modern solutions. Maybe we can sell hats and flamethrowers to generate support.
(/s in case it wasn’t obvious)
This is a great idea! It might work if you give everyone fake steering wheels and pedals.
it would have to be on rails. Sure, buses have fewer wheels per passenger but they are also heavier so go through their tyres much faster. Its probably still a net benefit but it doesnt eliminate the problem.
Its probably still a net benefit
oh god imagine if the math works out that it isn’t.
trains, bikes, and sailing ships only.
E-Bikes, maybe. There’s argument to be made that given a typical western diet heavy on meat (and not changing that) it’s better to just use electricity to power bicycles rather than meat filtered through humans
Sure, buses have fewer wheels per passenger but they are also heavier so go through their tyres much faster.
Per Passenger? A bus weighs like 40,000 pounds at most going by a quick google. The average car in the US weighs about 4,000lbs and the occupancy rate of cars is about 1,5, so 2,666lbs / passenger on a given trip. Every bus that has an average passenger rate of 15 and up beats that.
15 passengers on average seems way higher than most buses I’ve been on. Maybe during the very busiest times, but buses run all day. The many hours they spend with just four or five people aboard will really tank the average.
Buses also have more tires than cars – usually at least 6, but sometimes 10 or more. I still doubt they’re emitting more microplastics than cars per trip but the math isn’t so simple.
15 passengers on average seems way higher than most buses I’ve been on. Maybe during the very busiest times, but buses run all day. The many hours they spend with just four or five people aboard will really tank the average.
I don’t wanna say there isn’t busses that might producre more microplastic but an average of 15 passengers per bus isn’t like some insane goal to achieve, even in the current world, especially once you factor in that there’s also times that there’s way more than 15 people on one for a given trip
Trains.
Furthermore, death to cars.
Meanwhile Florida, Texas, Ohio are all doing burnouts
bikes even
Man, that would have been great 20 years ago.
If not now, when?
This is mostly just me being a doomer, paraphrasing from The Newsroom.
It wasn’t the plastic straws after all?
I’m shocked, shocked.Plastic straws are still very harmful for many sea animals and are apart from that entirely unnecessary (unlike tires).
As I read on masto, we should replace the tires with steel to stop the plastic pollution.
Of course to protect the road that would also have to be steel. And we’d need to link all the vehicles together to make best use of the limited steel road surface.
(It’s trains)
Steel dust quickly turns to iron oxide in the environment, which is a fairly common natural mineral (it’s the reason red clay is red). To be fair, there might still be some slight negative effects to ecosystems which do not naturally have a lot of iron oxide at the surface, but that wouldn’t even be a rounding error compared to the harmful environmental effects of tires and asphalt. Also, steel dust is very heavy so there’s essentially no chance of it getting into the air and inhaled.
Back in the 1900s we had cars like that they were electric, and didn’t run into traffic… I see the tracks for them every time the road is resurfaced.
I struggle to think of a view where plastic straws are a no no (which I agree) but car tyres aren’t. It’s both convenience product.
In many places, cars are a necessity because of structural issues that we need to solve. They aren’t innately required, but our world is built in such a way to require them.
I’m mostly going for the “entirely unnecessary (unlike tires)” thing, especially given consumption levels. I don’t think I would’ve gotten through a single tyres worth of plastic in straws in my lifetime even if they weren’t banned.
Like, sure, there is use cases for tyres even in utopia, hell, a tyreless bicycle sounds shit, but we’re talking what, like a percent of what is currently used?
You are correct to a degree, but many places around the world (even in America) have a suburb with a nearby city, and a bus that is mostly empty going from that suburb to said city. Meanwhile, that bus is stuck in car traffic going from where that bus originated (or anywhere on the line) to said city. It gets stuck in the same traffic going back
A lot of it isn’t structural. It’s cultural, it’s people. If you solve “the commute” social problem, the transit problem could be solved.
Some amount of inflatable tires will always be needed and used. Sure, the vast majority of them are also unnecessary, because most cars are, but humanity will obviously always need some vehicles that transport stuff efficiently without tracks. Bicycle tires also use similar materials.
I have 4 stainless steel straws never going back to that plastic bullshit
What are the odds that a PR group, well aware of the damage of tyres, spun the focus to target small consumable plastics?
Don’t look at cars, look at the image of turtles and straws, seagulls and can rings, and porpoises mistaking bags for jellyfish.
And here I was walking to work trying to suck some coffee through a damp piece of cardboard, while it turns out that the suburban Panzer IV commuters were to blame? What’s next?
It’s interesting to me that as soon as EV’s are finally seriously becoming a thing, we are told that tire dust, rather than ICE emissions, are really the worst thing possible for the planet (and it’s somehow implied that ICE vehicles don’t have tires). When somebody points out that ICE vehicles do, in fact, have tires too, EV’s are STILL worse because EV’s are heavier than the equivalent ICE cars. Strangely, the fact that for years, people have been driving ludicrously overweight vehicles (the Ford F150, weighing in at 4,070 to 5,757 lbs, is the top selling passenger vehicle in the US, and last I checked, it had tires) was never an issue.
It’s almost like people are incapable of comprehending that all types of pollution are important, not just one or the other. Exhaust emissions are bad. Tyre pollution is also bad. Reducing one is a good step. Reducing both would be even better.
Many things can be bad at once, and I’m sure tire particles really are bad. It is just weird that in the 137 years ICE cars have been manufactured (again, with tires the whole time), the fact that the tire particles were way worse than all the other things cars spew out went completely unnoticed.
I’m only being partially facetious. Yes I understand cars are now much cleaner than they used to be, so probably in the past tailpipe emissions were the dominant problem. But an awful lot of the articles talking about this are pushing the idea that EVs are WORSE for the environment than ICE cars (so let’s just keep driving our F150s!), which is absolutely untrue. Better is still better, even if it isn’t perfect.
We should push for hovercars
This why so many have always said that EVs are not the solution for climate change, they are and always will be a solution for the auto industry.
And yet it’s the auto industry lobby who’s trotting this line out because they’re not really ready for EVs and this is a good delaying tactic for them.
It’s not, because the same people who said evs are not the solution also say that the solution is accessible public transportation and bikes.
This is not the reason why they were saying this. They were saying it for other reasons. They didn’t know before anyone else. They merely have one more reason now.
This (microplastics from wheels) is a well known fact in science for quite some time though.
If only we could have a one company pick people up and deliver them to another point or work from home and have our stuff delivered.
The thing that picks people up could even have metal wheels as it follows a fixed route, and run on metal roads
Oh so you just wanna fill the oceans with micrometals!
Shellfish already beat us too it!!!
They’ve been enacting a conspiracy to release billions of tons of a metal so hazardous it explodes on contact with water into our oceans, and they’ve been at it for millions of years with nobody to stop them
Or work from home and walk to the grocery store that’s within walking distance.
Yes, all the manufacturing workers in the US should just… Work from home. And the restaurant, warehouse, service sector, and, like, everyone else. Just work from home! It’s magic!
Only a very tiny minority of people have the privilege to even be capable of working from home. The idea that everyone, or even a significant minority can, is absolutely ridiculous.
There are 4.4 million software engineers in North America. That’s excluding accountants, marketing people, designers, writers and possibly hundreds of jobs more. But oh no, let’s not get 4 million cars out of the road. Since everyone does not have the privilege to work from home, nothing else matters. This kind of bigoted thinking is why the world does not get better. And what you said word to word is how Elon Musk said when banning remote work, work that was done 100% remotely.
And there are 7 million software developers in China, 5 million in India, 1 million in Germany. All of them perfectly capable of working from home. But oh no, why bother taking millions of cars off the road per day, if it isn’t everyone in the world? Spoken like a true micromanager or an office building owner downtown.
I think the main issue here is that the very simplified rhetoric of ending use of personal cars in favor of public transportation. I don’t think that their issue is about it being better to get as many cars out of use. When the idea of ditching personal cars for a much better system of public transport is brought up it is presented as if everyone is in urban or a large suburb. Which are the areas that such public transportation is a great and needed goal. But the same words that are used never present that people in rural areas aren’t to be considered assholes for still needing personal transportation. Which also allows for right-wing outlets and politicians to spread the constant feeling of rural folks and their live are being attacked by libs. Those same right-wing folks will of course always find stuff to make this argument. However the lack of any mention of farmers or other rural folks as being an exception until we can make usable alternatives is a simple thing to sort out for the movement towards public transportation.
It just needs to be mentioned at all and can bring in better solidarity in reducing the vast majority of unnecessary personal ownership and use of cars. As someone that does live in a rural area and is very much in agreement about getting enough public transportation to get rid of so many cars. As it stands it just sounds like just another thing needed for daily work and life being “taken” from folks that don’t have the chance at other options. It would be good to not turn having a car into being a “rebel”. So many other efforts in protecting the environment have shown a similar divide between urban/suburban vs rural. Shit like “rolling coal” is an active effort to say “fuck you!” by people that really do feel like they are being attacked. It is a very stupid and stereotype re-enforcing thing to do in addition to being an asshole to others and the planet. But it is a divide that needs to be closed as much and and fast as possible if we want to be able to have any chance at un-fucking the global disaster. There is a difference between having a big truck with four wheel drive and actually needing it for farm work or other jobs that need that kind of thing. Vs the urban/suburban folks that get them and will never need to use it any different than they would a basic small two wheel drive car.
Also doesn’t help when rural folks constantly hear about all the stuff cities and suburbs get for infrastructure (especially stuff like telecommunication/real high-speed internet access), but they get left behind and charged even higher rates for the bad options that are there. The whole closing down of schools and offices for COVID meant that so many people literally just couldn’t do those things. It is much easier to deal with needing to suck it up and just stay home if you aren’t constantly fighting a shitty and laggy connection. Dial-up is still a real thing and unless the communications companies are forced to get shit for real out to these folks, then they will always just leave them out because profits.
And this one particular example of the massive divide is something that could be used in addition to the push for rolling out more rail options. The cities and suburban areas could benefit from taxes being used for public mass transit and rural areas could get massive modernization of internet access. Get more fiber laid while building the high-speed rail and other lines while the construction teams are already digging things up to get the tracks installed. I don’t know, but it would build a better feeling of connection instead of the current division of “city slickers and country hicks”.
Or work from home
That is what you said. The overwhelming majority of people do not have that capability. I’m not saying that no one should work from home, and that it’s not a great goal to have people that can doing so, but your phrasing implies that everyone has that capability.
People on this community really think its so simple to make everyone live walking distance to a train or bus and for everyone to work from home.
“Well, SOME people will need to have cars.” but also “death to cars”
I applaud the attempt, but you’re all insane.
Indeed. It’s just not possible.
I would love to have functional public transit across the US, but unless your goal is to entirely eliminate all rural life–which would include farms–you’re never going to be able to eliminate cars. I live near Atlanta; public transit there is abysmal. Building an elevated light rail system, and creating dedicated bus lanes throughout metro Atlanta would make the city much easier to navigate. But when I say near ATL, I mean that it takes about 90 minutes to get to the center with zero traffic. There’s simply not enough people to make buses viable in my town (there’s only one traffic light!), much less light rail.
The use of tires will be a daunting thing to change. If somehow we all managed to change to bicycles for instance, there are still tires.
The wear is drastically different, at least.
Probably easier to develop an alternative too when it doesn’t need to support two tons.
The amount of wear on the tires of a bicycle which let’s just assume the heaviest person riding the heaviest e-bike would be a few hundred pounds wearing on the tires? Compared to several tons for an auto pressing down on 4 tires it’s a LOT less.
If a solution reduces a problem by 99% I’d say that’s a damn good solution. Instead here we are, clapping and rejoicing when the car companies say the new model is 5% more fuel efficient or 3% lighter over the ongoing model.
The trend of most new vehicle sales are larger and heavier :(
Yup and, as the article states, electric cars are even worse.
As per the quote below, a car loses about 0.08g of tread per km.
Compared to a car, a bike tyre is about the same diameter, 10% of the width (~20mm), 28% usable tread depth (~2mm), has 50% less wheels, and can travel 10% the distance (~10000km).
This suggests a (very approximate) tread loss of 0.08 * 10% * 28% * 50% / 10% = ~ 0.01g per km for bicycles.
For replacing longer car journeys less typically travelled by bicycle, rail transport is the best solution and removes the issue of tyre wear.
Quoting [deleted] in r/theydidthemath:
Using the same assumptions as above (215/60R16 tires, 7mm of tread loss over 100,000 km), I estimate the loss of tread by volume from each tire as follows:
Cylinder with a diameter of 664 mm and a height of 215 mm has a volume of 74,412 cm3. Cylinder with a diameter of 664-(2x7)=650 mm and a height of 215 mm has a volume of 71,307 cm3. The volume difference between a new and worn out tire is 3105 cm3.
Typical land to sea ratio of tires is 60-70% land, depending on the type of tire. If we go with an about average value of close to 65% tread, we get the lost rubber volume of about 2000 cm3 or 2,000,000 mm3 over a single tires lifespan.
Each revolution of a tire loses about 0,04 mm3 of tread, which, according to Wolfram Alpha, is a bit less than the volume of a medium grain of sand.
If we look at the entire car with 4 tires over a kilometer of road, we get 80 mm3 or about 0,08 grams of tread lost per car per kilometer.
Your model fails to account for weight of the tyres, which has a big impact. I can’t figure out what that ratio is though.
Yeah way to not think about the problem or its multifaceted solutions at all. Just write out the first thing that pops into your head and hit post.
I mentioned this in a discussion a while back. Tires are a huge problem for society.
You know, I’d say we had a good run but honestly I just don’t feel like lying to make myself feel better. This shit sucks.
In the relatively short time humans have been on this planet, we’ve done an impressive job leaving a mark on this planet, pretty much exclusively in a bad way. If that’s the goal, we achieved it.
That was always the thing I was wondering about. Where was the origin of these microplastics. Surely it wasn’t all just those little beads that were in soap and shampoo
Some of it is due to washing clothes made of nylon or polyester, and of course that water eventually will go into the ocean.
The other source aside from tires and those beads is all the other plastics that we use. Especially when exposed to the elements, all(?) plastics eventually break down into tiny particles. This includes all synthetic fibers, by the way. I’ve seen studies that show how much synthetic clothes release microplastics each time we wash them.
That’s a real bummer because lots of my clothes are synthetic fabrics and I really like them compared to cotton. Sigh.
Sorry to hear. I prefer natural fibers, so it doesn’t affect me that much.
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Yes but no, because from the ocean it gets into the water cycle, and into dirt, plants and animals, and we end up ingesting it too.
Ocean microplastic is much more irreversible than atmospheric one.
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Has it been proven to be harmful to health?
Edit: why is this worthy of a downvote? How close minded do you have to be to downvote someone asking a basic and relevant question?
Microplastics? Yes.
Microplastics cause damage and death to cells in the body. While not confirmed, it is believed that this will result in a cancer risk in the future.
Thank you for the response, apparently asking pertinent questions around here is worthwhile of downvotes for some reason.
My next question would be how carcinogenic are they and how big is this risk with all else accounted for? Plenty of things from water to the very air we breathe are carcinogens, it’s a question of scale.
Research into those topics is still ongoing.
Right now the cytotoxic effects are the only effects confirmed in humans I believe.
We are consuming microplastics at an alarming rate, it’s found in our stomach, brain, lungs and blood. Fish and drinking water are the two largest sources of human ingestion of microplastics.
If carcinogenic then it would likely be pretty substantial.
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“
but Da CAR gives me personal freedom”Yeah the freedom to choke on loans, exhaust and tire dust
This reminds me of these wise words:
“A person who runs in front of a car gets tired. A person who runs behind a car gets exhausted.”
:)
