This meme is from 2004. History repeats itself.
It’s important to note that the real disparity may be even far worse.
OCHA-OPT (the committee gathering this data) is strict about verifying validity of Palestinian casualties, requiring two independent, verified and non-affiliated sources. Casualties in Israel, however, they trust the media at face value. They also exclude a lot of Palestinian casualties even when verified in certain situations. Example, and I quote them:
People who were killed or injured in conflict-related incidents that took place in Israel and did not involve residents of the oPt are also excluded.oPt (occupied Palestinian territories) are the areas that Israel does not directly oversee. So most of Israel is not oPt by their criteria.
Israel is notorious for restricting journalists reporting on Israeli crimes, and has murdered journalists countless of times, like last year the Christian Palestinian Shireen Abu Akleh reporting on the forced expulsion of Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah (so not even in a war zone area). This causes many casualties to go unverified and thus undocumented.
And Israel has been caught lying before about its own casualties, like the 40 beheaded babies.
Take that as you will.
That 2023 number is about to get way more lopsided.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up the same ratio as 2014
They’ve got a long road ahead of them to kill that many people but i admit the thought occurred to me as well. There does seem to be a ratio being followed here.
Given Israel’s rhetoric, they are literally letting us know the number will climb much higher. But the West is too busy condemning Hamas, and will sponsor yet another genocide in the modern era.
So seriously, fuck the closet racist xenophobes masquerading as defenders of freedom and democracy here. Tools of the state.
Definitely helps that Hamas uses the Palestinian people as human shields launching rockets from schools and hospitals.
Just stop and consider the psyche that takes. You have to 1) be completely willing to sacrifice the most vulnerable of your own people and 2) admit that your enemy doesn’t want to kill those same people. Imagine how things may go if Israel attempted to use Jews as human shields against Hamas.
This isn’t the Palestinian people “resisting”, it’s their batshit “government” that would kill us all if they had their way, killing as many people as they can regardless of whether it actually helps the cause of their people.
There is no doubt the Israeli government has and continues to commit war crimes. But supporting or justifying Hamas is just insane.
Didn’t look like you’re replying to anyone supporting Hamas.
Also, there is an alternative #2 in your scenario. “Know your enemy would lose too much western support too readily if they were to fine on all the civilian targets they would like to”.
Imagine how things may go if Israel attempted to use Jews as human shields against Hamas.
You mean like putting many settlements and civilians right on the border of Gaza, a concentration camp and active war Zone? Or allowing a rave dance to occur at the gates of a concentration camp and active war zone, and next to a military base that would be targeted by Hamas? And sprinkle in some IDF tanks while you’re at it.
Wait, we don’t have to imagine it.
I’m mostly pro Palestine, but using this picture with the subtitle ‘history repeats itself’ and therefore portraying what happened at the festival, and the other slaughter missions as a tiny goofy missile, feels kinda disproportionate. Don’t you think?
No. Hundreds of thousands will die in response to hundreds dying. The comic is still fully accurate even if “a single missile” is still condemnable.
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Shall we begin an era of endless terror by proving it works?
Just look at the US military, we already have
This isn’t a good reason
I felt just like this after 9/11. I don’t know enough about your country to tell you what the right thing to do is. But I wish that the USA could go back in time and just gradually assassinate Al Queda with the CIA instead or something. Those occupations were doomed from the start.
The CIA is literally the reason the Al Queda exists. has consistently been the biggest force funding and training terrorists groups around the world. Al Queda is just the modern iteration on the Mujahideen whom US was propping up in the 80s.
Yup. Listen to the latest season of Blowback podcast. CIA sheltered/evacuated a bunch of Al Quaeda leaders right before the invasion of Afghanistan began.
The US government at the time did not want to do any such thing. Project For A New American Century, the think tank most of the Bush administration officials came from, openly wrote about how they were hoping for a “new Pearl Harbor” they could use to take the US into war with Iraq. Later, President Bush got a memo about how Al Qaeda was going to attack the US mainland and he did nothing. Then 9/11 happened and the government lied the country into a war with Iraq. What part of this makes you think they were going to do anything about Al Qaeda (other than giving them more funds maybe)?
You’re right, I wish they had done the opposite.
Would’ve been living in a better world. (Cue that one Al Gore alternate reality SNL skit.)
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Ah yes, those Hamas fighters couldn’t tell the difference between a DJ’d festival and a military base.
Stop making shit up. Were the babies accidental military combatants?
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https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/
No only are you wrong, you’re literally defending people who again literally massacred babies.
You’re sick in the head.
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I’m not talking about who shoots the biggest rockets and who kills more people here. I’m talking about portraying a literal slaughter fest as a tiny lil rocket, mosquito sting or whatever, which causes no harm at all. This is not the right comic & subtitle to show what happened ‘today’. At least in my opinion. Because it’s not disproportionate to what happened.
But feel free to disagree, it you think it is. To me OP is more or less mocking the victims and I find it distasteful. Especially because people were involved, who weren’t even culturally part of this ethnical conflict in the first place.
And no I’m not part of team both sides bad, because this conflict involves more than two sides and in the end people in Gaza suffer the most.
Where did I mock the victims? Do not put words in my mouth. Can you not make a half-sound argument without lying?
By disproportianting what happened. How you can not see that is beyond me. Just try to reflect on what you posted. Slaughtering hundred civilians = tiny mosquito rocket.
‘History repeats itself’… but this level didn’t happen before.
From what I can see, @matcha_addict@lemy.lol is not mocking the victims of this tragedy, but rather criticising the media for writing about the israeli deaths caused by the hamas attack, yet hardly making a sound about the palestine deaths caused by israel.
It IS NOT a disproportionate representation. THAT’S THE POINT.
I am very sorry you fail to realize what death Israel will doll out in response, but this comic is completely accurate in the proportions displayed.
You LITERALLY have fighter jets and bombers striking back against … paragliders with guns…
Again, NO ONE except fucking losers are saying Hamas did anything good. That doesn’t make murdering dozens of thousands of Palestinians OK.
I don’t think disproportionate response doctrine from countries like the US and Israel should come as a surprise after more than half a century of conflict. Why murder 100 innocent people of your opponent when you know they will murder 1000 innocents of your people in response?
The issue isn’t whether anyone is surprised by it.
When it comes to war, there can be no holdbacks because hesitation means life or death.
So anyone who follows the Geneva Conventions is a doomed fool?
“history repeats itself” as in the people who only condemn needless killing when Hamas does it, but ignore the Palestinian cause the rest of the time.
It’s almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Guess which side this is, then:
Scores of people, mainly women and children, have been killed in multiple air strikes on the main road connecting north and south Gaza, as people carried out an Israeli order to flee their homes.
According to the Ministry of Health, at least 70 people have been killed in three separate air strikes on the road, with the latest killing at least 40.
The Israeli army said in a statement on Friday that civilians must leave Gaza City in the north, and that they would not be allowed to return “until we say so” and until “a statement is issued allowing this”.
However, locals have reported a number of attacks on the Salah al-Din Road since then. Survivors, speaking to local media, implored others not to make the journey for fear of being targeted by the Israelis.
“Do not leave,” a distraught survivor of the attacks told local media.
“They bombed the convoy. They bombed it on Salah al-Din Road. They bombed the ambulances.”
Another survivor said the attacks were a “direct targeting of women and children”.
“I was in the truck. There were about 200 people. 90 percent were women and children. We took the main road that the entire world knew we were taking. My entire family were with me. Out of nowhere, they dropped a bomb. Everything was black and I lost conscience for 10 mins,” they told local media.
“When I woke up I saw a mother lying with her baby, whose brain was right next to him. I heard the ambulances then they bombed again. I took cover and after a few minutes tried to check the damage, then they bombed again.”
When Israeli soldiers are bragging about raping and torturing people, it’s very clear what their intentions are
Source?
That’s troubling if true, and if it is, do you believe said soldiers speak for the entire Israeli government? Hamas’s atrocities are official policy.
Thanks for the link.
So one officer 7 years ago, who had the book thrown at him for his crimes by Israel. His actions are clearly opposed by his government and he was punished for his behavior. This isn’t the smoking gun @matcha_addict was implying it is.
Do you think Hamas will punish its own rapists, murderers, and kidnappers?
The officer, whose name remains barred from publication, served in the Defense Ministry’s Civil Administration, which is tasked with overseeing the day-to-day management of the West Bank. The officer, a major, was responsible for issuing permits for Palestinians to enter and work in Israel, a position of power that he repeatedly exploited in order to receive sexual favors from Palestinians.
Wow, you sure dismissed that as an isolated incident real quick!
I’m sure it never happened again now that they caught the only guy who got caught for doing it!
Hamas is not a state or government. It is a militia to fight occupation. It is nowhere near as organized as Israel with its governing body. You cannot equate the two.
Israel does not oppose this. There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide. But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
That’s just one of countless examples from a two seconds of googling. It’s the height of intellectual dishonesty to try and frame it as an isolated incident.
Did they just downvote you for asking a source? is this reddit all over again?
Hamas’ official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
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The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim. But sure, I’ll still respond. From Hamas’ official website:
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas’ official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
Hamas’ official policy is genocide and they just committed a massacre last week.
I addressed something similar to the first article you linked in another comment. The gist is that, no, that is not their official policy, and that contradicts with their official charter, posted on their official website.
while trying to minimize civilian deaths
If that’s what they’re trying to do, they really fucking suck at it.
And the motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances don’t matter a bit to the victims and their loved ones.
(They’re definitely not trying to do that either.)
While they do certainly look different, the end result of a death by malice or by ignorance is the same.
Yes, it’s not a perfect caricature, Crimea river
That is lemmy.ml in a nutshell.
Rules of the internet: you can safely discard everything that comes before the “, but”
If ignoring context helps you feed your bias, go for it.
The soundness of your argument should not depend on your stance. It is a common tactic to state that you are “pro-X” but criticize X, because people are more likely to sympathize with your criticism that way. The commenter you replied to is simply reminding us of this.
This is nothing new. Often the actions of Israel are portrayed in the worst way possible. As a quick example: The UN considers everyone under 18 a child, hamas starts recruiting at 14. When the IDF does a raid and kills one of these members the Arab media screams „Isreal has slaughtered children“
This is why I switched to being more pro Israel
Ignoring of course the countless children they kill who aren’t part of hamas. The ratio of children to adults killed by Israel can only be reached by doing it on purpose.
You “switching sides” because you don’t like the media reporting on these murders is a joke and I can only assume a lie, because it doesn’t make sense.
The media reporting stuff doesn’t change what is happening nor the morals and ethics involved. Silly to blame the media for you choosing to support the murder of innocents.
It’s on purpose, but on the hamas side, they use children and civilians in general as human meat shields. They fire their rockets from schools and hospitals, hide their equipment in residential areas. Just to scream „Israel bad“ when one of these outpost gets attacked
How convenient, when israel kills civilians its because palestine is hiding behind them, in their own country, being bombed. Its only heartless civilian massacres the other way around.
It seems so, if you gloss over the fact that Hamas is using unguided rockets to throw in the general direction of Israel and Israel is using precision ammunition to target the places the first were fired from.
So civilians killed by israel are even more egregious then. Like that strike on evacuees that just happened.
You’re suggesting that intent doesn’t matter, causing accidental civilian deaths while defending one’s self is an act morally equivalent to intentionally targeting and murdering civilians. I disagree. In most legal systems and ethical systems intent matters a lot.
Don’t try to claim moral superiority in a blood feud where both sides commit atrocities.
As if the cartoon this thread is about wasn’t claiming moral superiority for the other side.
Im mainly here to give the „Hamas is a resistance movement“ crowd a reality check
They are a violent resistance movement, opposing a violent colonialist movement.
Israel is expanding into the West Bank, not Gaza. They are resisting nobody. Israel even removed all of its citizens from that area. They are terrorists. They are founded by and doing the bidding for Iran.
Yes the Israelis don’t kill children for throwing rocks and then call them soldiers
I’d like to add even more context: ~45% of Palestine is under the age of 14.
Is condom use against their religion?
Palestinians do not have consistent access to clean water, no I don’t think they have consistent access to condoms.
“Palestinian women are not having lots of children because they don’t know about contraception, or can’t access contraception,” says Sara Randall, an anthropologist at University College London, who co-authored the 2006 investigation. “So one has to conclude that they actually want lots of children.” source
FYI links to her study, about Demography, not access to contraception - lead to a 404 page.
Here’s a prrtty informal survey about Gazan access to contraception, it sort of suggests they have, like I said, inconsistent access to contraception.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31856794/
The article you linked to makes many excellent points. When you’re poor, bored, and chock full of bombing-induced PTSD, having many kids is seen as a good idea.
It isn’t anti-Semitism to criticize israel, it’s just noticing the obvious.
There are criticisms that are antisemitic. This isn’t one of them, though.
The only one I can think of is the idea that the Jews made up the Holocaust to guilt the West into giving up Israel… Which is indeed antisemetic, and asburd
My favorite was when Bernie Sanders was called antisemitic for criticizing Israel. His response was something along the lines of “It isn’t antisemitic to criticize a right-wing government in Israel.” It must’ve taken all the patience in the world to not add “you fucking toolbags”.
I’m not a Christian, but if Bernie was the second coming…
I’d be only slightly surprised
Fascists get away with conflating Judaism and Zionism because they don’t teach that Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, and actually goes against a lot of their values. It’s actually been around for quite awhile; you know the crusades, when they went around killing a bunch of civilians to set up settlements? Those were Christian Zionists.
That’s why it’s anti-semitic to conflate the two. One is a religion and the other is a fascist genocidal colonialist movement. So next time you see some german lady shouting down a holocaust survivor for calling out Israeli apartheid (yes, this literally happened, and it was the Jewish guy who got punished) you’ll see it for what it is. It’s not complicated, it’s a clear cut case of modern day nazism.
Amen, who was it who said that the way to find out what group is getting away with too much bullshit is to look at what group you’re not allowed to criticize in any Circle?
Dafuq is this meme? civilians are civilians, regardless of the country religion or whatever the duck they’re born in.
If civilians are civilians…
"Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/
In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month."
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/
Both sides kill civilians with abandon, and Israel is markedly better at it. Major media doesn’t seem to care very much about Palestinian civilians though.
But it’s not because of a lack of trying. Israel has the iron dome. Since then the death’s declined. They protect the civilians, that’s why the deaths declined.
Fair, but the point is that there is no side here playing by the no civilians rule, yet only Palestinians are called out for it.
The headline of the newest chapter in this shitshow for some reason is “How could Hamas attack Civilians?! Civilians?!” When the reality is that hasn’t really been a red line to the Israeli government or Hamas. Never has been.
Its evil all day, don’t get me wrong. The twisted thing is that somehow Israel is somehow perpetually marketed as being the good guys playing by the rules of engagement in spite of being no different with regards to killing non-enemy combatants.
Why are israeli civilian concert goers a global tragedy, while Palestinian civilian casualties past and present just another thursday? Why doesn’t the world lose its shit at 10 Palestinian civilians killed a month? Are Palestinians somehow universally recognized as having less value as human beings than Israelis?
Are Palestinians somehow universally recognized as having of less value as human beings than Israelis?
Yes, at least among Western media and its consumers
Because it’s not that easy. billions a year go into Gaza as a humanitarian aid each year. So the world cares. The sad thing is, the 24h news cycle isn’t interested in a thing that happens regularly but at outlier. You also don’t get a report every time the iron dome successfully repelled an attack. The death of the people in Gaza is also „planned“ by Hamas to use as a tool to get support from the people and other Arab states, and to get footage to paint Israel as the most evil, to justify their dschihad
Because the terrorists are specifically targeting civilians whereas Israel is targeting military targets that the terrorists put a bunch of human shields around
It is the exact opposite. Israel continuously brutalizes even Palestinian civilians in their own territories, without any military supporting them whatsoever.
I’m glad we can agree that hamas are terrorists and not an actual military at least
What definition of “terrorist” are we using here by which Israel isn’t 100x more terrorist?
This is the correct take. Hamas deliberately built their bunkers underneath schools and hospitals.
I’m sure the cutting of water and electricity to an entire population was something the Israelis were forced to do too…
That’s a funny way to say “Israel has continued to fire at defenseless civilians”
I completely agree with you. Which is why when you look at the grotesque number of civilians Israel kills every year it’s pretty easy to condem them.
Get off your high horse colonizer
Israel is the colonizers in this instance and I’m opposing them so???
Uh, what?
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Do you somehow not realise that is exactly the point being made?
YES, because OP is typing words that can be misconstrued as being a shill or a bigoted asshole. I’m smart enough to recognize it if you point it out, but I’m not fucking psychic, and I’m the kind of person who believes in dream prophesies so that just shows that neither potential delusion nor intelligence have anything to do with people misreading things online. It’s just human and technical limitations, but your italics are clear so: if you don’t want people to be annoyed at you, maybe respond without being condescending.
How could you misconstrue their words that way?
Jesus Christ I had to scroll through like, 10 top level comments to find someone with a measure of reason. I’m actually stunned.
Israel kills more civilians.
I think I’m going to take an extended break from Lemmy. People are treating a 70+ year political quagmire like a football match, where they pick a side and then morally grandstand about how awful the other side is. Fuck all of you.
sounds like something The Other Side would say
You don’t live in an open air prison so enjoy it.
I think it’s technically a thousands of years quagmire.
Nope. It began in late 19th century at the earliest.
Unfortunately, those that don’t fall under what you’re describing simply don’t comment because they know it’s a massive, nuanced issue, so all you’re seeing are the loudest, least nuanced voices
and like a football match, people are watching it happen live on youtube
This real time information spread during the Ukrainian invasion and this, is so crazy.
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I hope more of you fake nuanced people go back to Reddit.
“bro please bro it’s complicated bro you can’t oppose apartheid bro have you not considered it’s complicated bro? Please bro you have to maintain status quo”
I agree with the comic. I do however disagree with the title. I think the Hamas’ attack shouldn’t to be called “resistance”, just as Israel’s response shouldn’t be called “self defense”.
This! Was searching the whole comment section and wanted to post it just now and luckily hit refresh.
I agree with you that it needs to be clarified further. While I think it is still “resistance” in the sense that it was done with the intention to resist occupation and all what Israel does, I do agree that civilians died that didn’t need to, and it did not lead to positive results.
When you live your whole life in a concentration camp and get bombed almost daily, you may lose some rationality and start justifying more things in the name or resistance. Ultimately I blame Israel for putting them in this situation, and putting civilians so close to their border.
In the end, my whole point is that Hamas attack must not justify a response from Israel. It should lead us to pull back instead.
Take a look at this guy’s other Palestine Israel Post and decide if you wanna upvote this terrorist enjoyer.
https://lemy.lol/post/11080592 for the curious.
On Lemmy, you firstly see the message before the messenger. That is something that makes it magical, it clears your self-history and allow you to have a free mind on ideas presented.
“The genocide must stop” is what you consider to be terrorism? Oh yeah, you must be from the west, where terrorism is resisting massacre.
there is no bigger terrorist than Israel.
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Didn’t you read what he wrote? He, acting as our representative, has already made it clear that we, all third parties, don’t care and just want to watch the world burn. Get in line!
makes me care less
What has your hesitant caring (if even true) achieved before? Is there anything lost that we should worry about?
We actually much rather you take a step back and leave us. Please start by telling your governments to gtfo of Middle east and stop all intervention. We don’t want you.
I mean, both Hamas and Israeli leadership should be prosecuted for war crimes
I just think this situation shouldn’t have even been reached in the first place…
I would not equate the too. Not to mention, Israel sponsored Hamas.
This is highly misleading. Hamas is not palestine and vice versa. What israel is fighting against is hamas, who are cowardly hiding behind civilians. The only reason the israeli can survive thousands of rocket launch from hamas over the years was because of their superior defence system. Hamas’ own rocket sometimes fell into their own territory, killing palestinian, but many people would just shut their eyes to this.
Israel is fighting against all of Palestine, not just Hamas.
who are cowardly hiding behind civilians
Israel won’t let civilians outside of Gaza. They want Hamas to be among civilians. Moreover, Israel brutalizes Palestinians who live inside Israeli borders, without Hamas troops present.
This reminds me of that movie where the bad guy takes a bunch of hostages as a human shield and the good guy just kills all of them so he can kill the bad guy. Wait… that never happens
That movie was called Sri Lanka I believe
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Is this cartoon originally about the US invading the middle east? Looks like the twin towers in there.
Now your upvote counter is the twin towers.
EDIT: And if you think about it, my upvote counter is the twin towers shortly after
EDIT2: Too far! Too far!
I laughed
Upvote this to the front page so that lemmy world sees it.
Hard to notice something when you close your eyes and plug your ears
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im not pro palestine im anti israel
war is hell, neither side is good, but resistance is only human
Why not pro Palestine? They are the resistance to Israel.
It’s possible for both sides of a conflict to suck.
It is possible. But in this case, it is occupier vs occupied. An ethnoreligious state vs stateless people being ethnically cleansed. Something being possible doesn’t make it factual.
Life is not a Marvel movie
Then act like it
I’m not parsing people parading around with corpses for their “resistance ✊” just because they would make a good “opressed good guy” in a movie
Is there a coherent argument here for me to respond to? If so, state it clearly and directly. Your movie analogy makes no sense.
It would have been okay if they just lived their live peacefully and actually cared to improve. But no, “we need more land and more people over the world seeing how we kill civilians”. This is so going to work for sure, yeah.
free palestine
Casualties? Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible, no matter of what nationality they were. Even tourists were killed. Casualties are about bad luck, but Hamas victims were murdered because of evil intention. They cannot be compared to Palestinian casualties in any way.
While I agree with you about Hamas, the fact you don’t apply the same logic to the IDF is very telling. A country that believes a whole group of people are less than human and wants them eradicated absolutely intends every casualty it inflicts.
Israeli snipers murder innocent children, journalists and medical staff because of evil intentions.
Israeli bombs dropped on one of the densest populated areas which are bound to inflict civilian casualties are doing their intended evil.
The choice to turn off the electricity even though it will guarantee deaths in hospitals is not bad luck and is evil.
Israel is evil.
In fact if we’re going by civilian casualties Israel is like 36x more evil.
Why can’t they be compared? People killed with a knife are just as dead as people killed with a missile.
Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible
Source?
This is false. Hamas is not free of criticism, they did commit needless killing of civilians, but their main target remains the IDF. This is contrasted with Israel, whose target is civilians.
Even the music festival was located right next to the Re’im base. The festival itself had Israeli gunned men and tanks. Again, I do not condemn the civilians needlessly killed by some Hamas members, but the operation’s target was the military.
