Agreed. @cypherpunks@lemmy.ml, I think this would be a great idea - making a weekly megathread for Linux questions, preferably also stickied for visibility.

Yeah I was thinking the same. Perhaps make a sticky post about it once a week.

Subjectively: it is hard to keep my legs shaved

Objectively: there’s never enough programming socks

Don’t try to shave. Use hair removal creams instead. You get longer lasting results and the skin is actually free from hair stubbles.

I have 6 pairs.

MOAR SOCKS

Thank you 😄

A symlink works more closely to the first way you described it. The software opening a symlink has to actually follow it. It’s possible for a software to not follow the symlink (either intentionally or not).

So your sync software has to actually be able to follow symlinks. I’m not familiar with how gdrive and similar solutions work, but I know this is possible with something like rsync

A symlink is a file that contains a shortcut (text string that is automatically interpreted and followed by the operating system) reference to another file or directory in the system. It’s more or less like Windows shortcut.

If a symlink is deleted, its target remains unaffected. If the target is deleted, symlink still continues to point to non-existing file/directory. Symlinks can point to files or directories regardless of volume/partition (hardlinks can’t).

Different programs treat symlinks differently. Majority of software just treats them transparently and acts like they’re operating on a “real” file or directory. Sometimes this has unexpected results when they try to determine what the previous or current directory is.

There’s also software that needs to be “symlink aware” (like shells) and identify and manipulate them directly.

You can upload a symlink to Dropbox/Gdrive etc and it’ll appear as a normal file (probably just very small filesize), but it loses the ability to act like a shortcut, this is sometimes annoying if you use a cloud service for backups as it can create filename conflicts and you need to make sure it’s preserved as “symlink” when restored. Most backup software is “symlink aware”.

Software opens a symlink the same way as a regular file. The kernel reads a path stored in a symlink and then opens a file with that path (or returns a error if unable to do this for some reason). But if a program needs to perform specific actions on symlinks, it is able to check the file type and resolve symlink path.

To determine how some specific software handle symlinks, read its documentation. It may have settigs like “follow symlinks” or “don’t follow symlinks”.

ELI5: when a computer stores something like a file or a folder, it needs to know where it lives and where its contents are stored. Normally where the a file or folder lives is the same place as where its contents are. But there are times where a file may live in one place and its contents are elsewhere. That’s a symlink.

So for your video example, the original video is located in Downloads so the video file will say I am movie.mp4 and I live i live in downloads, and my contents are in downloads. While the symlink says, I am movie.mp4 I live in home, and my contents are in downloads over there.

For a video player, it doesn’t care if the file and the content is in the same place, it just need to know where the content lives.

Now how software will treat a symlink as an absolute. For example if you have 2 PCs synced with cloud storage, and both downloads and home is being synced between your 2 pcs. Your cloud storage will look at the symlink, access the content from pc1 and put your movie.mp4 in pc2’s downloads and home. But it will also put the contents in both places in pc2 since to it, the results are the same. One could make software sync without breaking the symlink, but it depends on the developer and the scope of the software.

Whenever I open the symlink, does the software (player) understand «oh this file seems like a symlink, I should go and open the original file», or it’s a filesystem level stuff and software (player) basically has no idea if a file I’m opening is a symlink or the original movie.mp4?

Others have answered well already, I just will say that symlinks work at the filesystem level, but the operating system is specially programmed to work with them. When a program asks the operating system to open a file at a given path, the OS will automatically “reference” the link, meaning it will detect a symlink and jump to the place where the symlink is pointing.

A program may choose to inspect whether a file is a symlink or not. By default, when a program opens a file, it simply allows the operating system to reference the file path for it.

But some apps that work on directories and files together (like “find”, “tar”, “zip”, or “git”) do need to worry about symlinks, and will check if a path is a symlink before deciding whether to reference it. For example, you can ask the “find” command to list only symlinks without referencing them: find -type l

Symlinks are fully transparent for all software just opening the file etc.

If the software really cares about this (like file managers) they can simply ask the Linux kernel for additional information, like what type of file it is.

its a pointer.

E: Okay so someone downvoted “it’s a pointer”. Here goes. both hard links and symbolic links are pointers.

The hard link is a pointer to a spot on the block device, whereas the symbolic link is a pointer to the location in the filesystems list of shit.

That location in the filesystems list of shit is also a pointer.

So like if you have /var/2girls1cup.mov, and you click it, the os looks in the file system and sees that /var/2girls1cup.mov means 0x123456EF and it looks there to start reading data.

If you make a symlink to /var/2girls1cup.mov in /bin called “ls” then when you type “ls”, the os looks at the file in /bin/ls, sees that it points to /var/2girls1cup.mov, looks in the file system and sees that it’s at 0x123456EF and starts reading data there.

If you made a hard link in /bin called ls it would be a pointer to the location on the block device, 0x123456EF. You’d type “ls” and the os would look in the file system for /bin/ls, see that /bin/ls means 0x123456EF and start reading data from there.

Okay but who fucking cares? This is stupid!

If you made /bin/ls into /var/2girls1cup.mov with a symlink then you could use normal tools to work with it, looking at where it points, it’s attributes etc and like delete just the link or fully follow (dereference) the link and delete all the links in the chain including the last one which is the filesystems pointer to 0x123456EF called /var/2girls1cup.mov in our example.

If you made /bin/ls into a hardlink to 0x123456EF, then when you did stuff to it the os wouldn’t know it’s also called /var/2girls1cup.mov and when /bin/ls didn’t work as expected you’d have to diff the output of mediainfo on both files to see that it’s the same thing and then look where on the hard drive /var/2girls1cup.mov and /bin/ls point to and compare em to see oh, someone replaced my ls with a shock video using a hard link.

When you delete the /bin/ls hardlink, the os deletes the entry in the file system pointing to 0x123456EF and you are able to put normal /bin/ls back again. Deleting the hard link wouldn’t actually remove the data that comprises that file off the drive because “deleting” a “file” is just removing the file systems record that there’s something there to be aware of.

If instead of deleting the /bin/ls hardlink, you opened it up and replaced the video portion of its data with the music video to never gonna give you up, then when someone tried to open /var/2girls1cup.mov they’d instead see that music video.

if that is, the file wasn’t moved to another place on the block device when you changed it. Never gonna give you up has a much longer running time than 2girls1cup and without significant compression the os is gonna end up putting /bin/ls in a different place in the block device that can accommodate the longer data stream. If the os does that when you get done modifying your 2girls1cup /bin/ls into rickroll then /bin/ls will point to 0x654321EF or something and only you will experience astleys dulcet tones when you use ls, the old 0x123456EF location will still contain the data that /var/2girls1cup.mov is meant to point to and you will have played yourself.

Okay with all that said: how does the os know what to do when one of its standard utilities encounters a symlink? They have a standard behavior! It’s usually to “follow” (dereference) the link. What the fuck good would a symbolic link be if it didn’t get treated normally? Sometimes though, like with “ls” or “rm” you might want to see more information or just delete the link. In those cases you gotta look at how the software you’re trying to use treats links.

Or you can just make some directories and files with touch and try what you wanna do and see what happens, that’s what I do.

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Someone already gave an answer, but the reason it’s done that way is because on Linux, generally programs don’t install themselves - a package manager installs them. Windows (outside of the windows store) just trusts programs to install themselves, and include their own uninstaller.

Because Linux and the programs themselves expect specific files to be placed in specific places, rather than bunch of files in a single program directory like you have in Windows or (hidden) MacOS.

If you compile programs yourself you can choose to put things in different places. Some software is also built to be more self contained, like the Linux binaries of Firefox.

you install program A, it needs and installs libpotato then later you install program B that depends on libfries, and libfries depends on libpotato, however since you already have libpotato installed, only program B and libfries are installed The intelligence behind this is called a package manager

In windows when you install something, it usually installs itself as a standalone thing and complains/reaks when dependencies are not met - e.g having to install Visual C++ 2005-202x for games, JRE for java programs etc

instead of making you install everything that you need to run something complex, the package manager does this for you and keep tracks of where files are

and each package manager/distribution has an idea of where some files be stored

I wish every single app installed in the same directory. Would make life so much easier.

Expanding on the other explanations. On Windows, it’s fairly common for applications to come with a copy of everything they use in the form of DLL files, and you end up with many copies of various versions of those.

On Linux, the package manager manages all of that. So if say, an app needs GTK, then the package manager makes sure GTK is also installed. And since your distribution’s package manager manages everything and mostly all from source code, you get a version of the app specifically compiled for that version of GTK the distribution provides.

So if we were to do it kind of the Windows way, it would very, very quickly become a mess because it’s not just one big self contained package you drop in C:\Program Files. Linux follows the FSH which roughly defines where things should be. Binaries go to /usr/bin, libraries to /usr/lib, shared files go to /usr/shared. A bunch of those locations are somewhat special, for example .desktop files in /usr/share/applications show up in the menu to launch them. That said Linux does have a location for big standalone packages: that’s usually /opt.

There’s advantages and inconveniences with both methods. The Linux way has the advantage of being able to update libraries for all apps at once, and reduce clutter and things are generally more organized. You can guess where an icon file will be located most of the time because they all go to the same place, usually with a naming convention as well.

Because dependencies. You also should not be installing things you download of the internet nor should you use install scripts.

The way you install software is your distros package manager or flatpak

different strokes.

windows comes from the personal computing world and retains a bunch of stuff from it to this very day for no good reason, in this case there used to be no guarantee that a particular installation target would have the target directory mapped in a consistent way so the installer would make a guess and give the user a chance to change it.

if that sounds stupid, it is. no one writes in assembly anymore, they target the OS and nowadays the OS will have a consistent set of folders to install stuff to. we all know where the program “should” be installed to already.

but it didn’t used to be like that in the PC world! used to be your computer wasn’t a fixed purpose windows computer from the jump, never to be anything else. there were different OSes that people would use regularly and even different DOS environments which a person could use to run programs under. Hard disks weren’t disks inside the machine, but big beige external disks that you’d plug up, set beside the computer and access after booting. in that setup where a programmer targeted DOS (if they cared about the execution environment at all and didn’t just write for the processor) it made sense to ask where someone was gonna want to install their software, and to what extent they’d even want to start dirtying up the media they paid good money for with some knuckleheads weird files from some goofy program on a stack of floppy disks.

linux comes from the unix world, where the question of where something installs is easy and straightforward: it installs in $PATH. what is $PATH? it’s where the os will look when you try to run something to see if it can run any program by that name. if a program isn’t installed in $PATH then when you type its’ name in and hit enter the computer won’t know what the hell youre talking about and you’ll have to type it’s whole ass location out and hit enter.

Why didn’t unix systems that linux imitates ask you where to install stuff? because usually it wasn’t your choice! linux was unix for personal computers and unix was run on systems that took up whole rooms with all sorts of equipment. you might be the user of that system but never have access to the room with all the spinning disks and flashing lights, stuck on a terminal dialing in over a serial line.

so the assumption was that you’d have a variable in your user environment that would say where things were installed but not that you’d have the ability to change it or even install things.

so why in a linux environment would you ever install anything outside of $PATH or even want to be sure where something’s installed at all?

even under linux it can be useful to do either. installing outside of path keeps programs from being accidentally autocompleted or invoked. installing in a particular component of $PATH ($PATH can be many directories!) lets you put serious business programs that demand maximum performance on faster media.

so why the hell won’t linux systems give you the option of installing in a specific location or outside of $PATH altogether?

they will, but unlike windows, they don’t ask you. unless you specifically ask to do that unique and very abnormal operation, they just do the usual thing. when you want to install weirdly you gotta dig into your package manager and packaging system. sometimes you unzip a package and change a line in a file then zip it back up and install from your modified version.

This is 80% of my usage of awk and sed:

“ugh, I need the 4th column of this print out”: command | awk '{print $4}'

Useful for getting pids out of a ps command you applied a bunch of greps to.

”hm, if I change all ‘this’ to ‘that’ in the print out, I get what I want": command | sed "s/this/that/g"

Useful for a lot of things, like “I need to change the urls in this to that” or whatever.

Basically the rest I have to look up.

Awk lets you do operations based on patterns. You can make little scripts and mini programs with it.

Sed lets you edit streams.

Almost everything can be treated like a stream so with those two tools you have the power to do damn near everything ever.

There’s a book called sed & awk that’s real good.

If you’re gonna dive into sed and awk, I’d also highly recommend learning at least the basics of regular expressions. The book Mastering Regular Expressions has been tremendously helpful for me.

Edit: a letter. Stupid autocorrect.

Awk is a programming language designed for reading files line by line. It finds lines by a pattern and then runs an action on that line if the pattern matches. You can easily write a 1-line program on the command line and ask Awk to run that 1-line program on a file. Here is a program to count the number of “comment” lines in a script:

awk 'BEGIN{comment_count=0;} /^[[:space:]]*[#]/{comment_count++;} END{print(comment_count);}' file.sh

It is a good way to inspect the content of files, espcially log files or CSV files. But Awk can do some fairly complex file editing operations as well, like collating multiple files. It is a complete programming language.

Sed works similar to Awk, but it is much simplified, and designed mostly around CLI usage. The pattern language is similar to Awk, but the commands are usually just one or two letters representing actions like “print the line” or “copy the line to the in-memory buffer” or “dump the in-memory buffer to output.”

Probably a bit narrow, but my usecases:

• awk: modify STDIN before it goes to STDOUT. Example: only print the 3rd word for each line
• sed: run a regex on every line.

timeshift is pretty good, but bootable btrfs snapshots are even better

You want a disk imager like clonezilla or something. If you’re not ready for that just show hidden files and copy your /home/your_username directory to a usb or something. That’s where all your files live.

I ran Linux in a vm and destroyed it about… 5 times. It allowed me to really get in and try everything. Once I rana command that removed everything, and I remember watching icons disappear as the destruction unfolded in front of me. It was kind of fun.

I have everything backed up and synced so it’s all fine. Just lots of reinstalling Thunderbird, Firefox, re logging into firefox sync, etc.

Once I stopped destroying everything I did a proper install and haven’t looked back.

This will be my 7th year on Linux now. And I have to say, it feels good to be free.

Install everything from store, and you should be fine. If you see a tutorial being too complicated, it is probably not worth following. Set your search engine to past year and see if there are better tutorials.

You might also want to consider atomic distros, they are much harder to mess up, and much easier to restore.

Another perspective: Your question implies you want to try out things with Debian. If this assumption is correct, I would highly recommend you just create a virtual machine with qemu/libvirt and learn within this environments/try out things there before doing stuff ‘on the metal’.

Of course backups are always a good idea and once you got your feed wet you might want to learn about ‘Infrastructure as code’. Have fun!

/bin, since that will include any basic programs (bash, ls, cd, etc.).

As in, the directory in which much of the operating system’s executable binaries are contained in?

They’ll be spread between /bin and /sbin, which might be symlinks to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. Bonus points is /boot.

There is no direct equivalent, system32 is just a collection of libraries, exes, and confs.

Some of what others have said is accurate, but to explain a bit further:

Longer explanation:

The basics:

• /bin - base level executables, ls, mv, things like that
• /sbin - super-level-only (root) executables, parted, reboot, etc
• /lib - Somewhat self-explanatory, holds libraries, lots of things put their libs here, including linux kernel modules, /lib/modules/*, similar to system32’s function of holding critical libraries
• /etc - Configuration lives here, generally speaking, /etc/<application name> can point you in the right direction, typically requires super-user (root) to edit
• /usr - “User installed” software, which can be a murky definition in today’s world, but lots of stuff ends up here for installed software, manuals, icon files, executables

Bonus:

• /opt - A special location, generally third-party, bundled-style software likes to use this, Java for instance, but historically some admins use it as the “company location”, meaning internally developed software would live there.
• /srv - Largely subjective, but myself and others I know use it for partitions that are outside the primary disk, for instance we use /srv/db for database volumes, /srv/www for web-data volumes, /srv/Media for large-file storage, etc, etc

For completeness:

• /home - You’ll find your user directories here, personally, this is my directory I backup, I don’t carry much more with me on most systems.
• /var - “Variable data”, basically meaning any data that will likely grow over time, eg: /var/log

For the memes:

sudo rm -rf /*

This deletes everything and is the most popular linux meme

The same “expected” functionality:

sudo rm -rf /bin/*

This deletes the main binaries. You kinda can recover here but I have never done it.

Don’t think there is.

system32 holds files that are in various places in Linux, because Windows often puts libraries with binaries and Linux shares them.

The bash in /bin depends on libraries in /lib for example.

/usr/lib or /usr/lib64 or /lib (some distros) or /lib64

Some things (like hosts file) are in /etc. /etc mostly contains configs.

What is system32? Outdated 32bit binaries?

It’s a distribution completely centered around the Nix package manager. This basically allows you to program how your system should look using one programming language. If you want an identical system, just copy that file and you’re set.

Instead of installing packages through a package manager one at a time and configuring your system by digging into individual config files, NixOS has you write a single config file with all your settings and programs declared. This lets you more easily configure your system and have a completely reproducible system by just copying your nix files to another nixos machine and rebuilding.

It’s also an immutable distribution, so the base system files are only modified when rebuilding the whole system from your config, but during runtime it’s read only for security and stability.

Waydroid works, but there’s three main things you need to get things going to replicate a typical Android device:

• OpenGapps: For GApps/Play Store. You’ll also need to register your device to get an Android ID.
• Magisk: Mainly to pass SafetyNet / Play Integrity basic checks.
• libndk / libhoudini: For ARM > x86 translation. libndk works better on AMD.
• Widevine: (optional) L3 DRM for things that need it, eg Netflix

There are some automated scripts that can set this all up. I used this one in the past with some success.

Also, stay away from nVidia. From what I recall, it just doesn’t work, or there are other issues like crashes. But if you’re serious about Linux in general, then ditching nVidia is generally a good idea.

Finally, games that use anti-cheat can be a hit-or-miss (like Genshin Impact, which crashed when I last tried it). But that’s something that you may face on any emulator, I mean, any decent anti-cheat system would detect the usage of emulators.

By default waydroid uses an x86 android image. Most games are not build for x86.

I have followed this to run an arm android image. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Waydroid#ARM_Apps_Incompatible

With that, I was able to install all apps.

Try Android Studio

Most probably, no. I tried to run bluestacks on wine. Some game works, most of em don’t

The terminal world has Ctrl+C and Ctrl+(many other characters) already reserved for other things before they ever became standard for copy paste. For for this reason, Ctrl+Shift+(C for copy, V for paste) are used.

Old timer here! As many others replying to you indicate, Ctrl+C means SIGINT (interrupt running program). Many have offered the Ctrl+Shift+C, but back in my day, we used Shift+Insert (paste) and Ctrl+Insert (copy). They still work today, but Linux has 2 clipboard buffers and Shift+Insert works against the primary.

As an aside, on Wayland, you can use wl-paste and wl-copy in your commands, so git clone "$(wl-paste)" will clone whatever repo you copied to your clipboard. I use this one all the time

In Terminal land, Ctrl+C has meant Cancel longer than it’s meant copy. Shift + Insert does what you think Ctrl+V will do.

Also, there’s a separate thing that exists in most window managers called the Primary buffer, which is a separate thing from the clipboard. Try this: Highlight some text in one window, then open a text editor and middle click in it. Ta da! Reminder: This has absolutely nothing to do with the clipboard, if you have Ctrl+X or Ctrl+C’d something, this won’t overwrite that.

Does Ctrl+Shift+V work?

In most terminal (gnome terminal, blackbox, tilix etc.) you can actually override this behavior by changing keyboard shortcut. Blackbox even have a simple toggle that will enable ctrl+c v copy paste.

Gnome console is the only terminal I know that doesn’t allow you to change this.

Due to some old school terminal things. Add shift to shortcut combinations, such as Ctrl+Shift+V to paste.

What usually also works on Linux is selecting text with the mouse and pasting it by pressing the middle mouse button (or scroll wheel). You’d still need the mouse, but it’s at least a little quicker ☺️

If you try a distro that does it by default then it is no more complicated then ext4 for the user. The distro will setup things for you. I know that opensuse Tumbleweed and Fedora Workstation set this up by default. Manually configuring is how ever a bit more complicated.

Great question!

EndeavourOS has a great little wiki of tutorials around BTRFS and setting up snapshots, that’s a lot more friendly than just reading wiki manuals.

Here’s a link to the one about getting snapshots and rollbacks set up.

https://discovery.endeavouros.com/encrypted-installation/btrfs-with-timeshift-snapshots-on-the-grub-menu/2022/02/

Alternatively, I run OpenSUSE Tumbleweed on my main production rig and it uses BTRFS and sets up snapshots from the GRUB menu for you by default!

I’m also using Nvidia, so while it’s gotten better and I haven’t had to roll back in a long time, Snapper has saved my butt once or twice in the past. ;)

Albeit not completely beginner friendly, the arch wiki explains btrfs features and manual configuration pretty well. If you are looking for a guide to a snapshot tool, then it depends on your distro, but they probably have an article for it as well (also, check the “related articles” section at the top of the page).

Just install your system on btrfs and figure the rest out later

Software changes. Version 0.5 will not have the same features as Version 0.9 most of the time. Features get added over time, features get removed over time and the interface of a library might change over time too.

As a software dev, the only thing you can do is keep the same API for ever, but that is not always feasible.

Because it’s not guaranteed that it’ll work. FOSS projects don’t run under strict managerial definitions where they have to maintain compatibility in all their APIs etc. They are developed freely. As such, you can’t really rely on full compatibility.

That’s the same on ANY platform, but windows is far worse because most apps ship a DLL and -never- update the damn thing. With Linux, it’s a little bit more transparent. (edit: unless you do the stupid shit and link statically, but again in the brave new world of Rust and Go having 500 Mb binaries for a 5 Kb program is acceptable)

Also, applications use the API/ABI of a particular library. Now, if the developers of the said library actually change something in the library’s behavior with an update, your app won’t work it no more unless you go and actually update your own code and find everything that’s broken.

So as you can understand, this is a maintenance burden. A lot of apps delegate this to a later time, or something that happens sometimes with FOSS is that the app goes unmaintained somewhat, or in some cases the app customizes the library so much, that you just can’t update that shit anymore. So you fix on a particular version of the library.

You sometimes can build software that will work with more than one version of a C library, but less and less software is being written that binds only to C libraries. The key topic you want to look up is probably “ABI stability”.

IMHO the answer is social, not technical:

Backwarts compatibility/legacy code is not fun, and so unless you throw a lot of money at the problem (RHEL), people don’t do it in their free time.

The best way to distribute a desktop app on Linux is to make it Win32 (and run it with WINE) … :-P (Perhaps Flatpak will change this.)

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Debian desktop user here, and I would happily switch to RHEL on the desktop.

I fully agree, outdated packages can be very annoying (running a netbook with disabled WIFI sleep mode right now, and no, backported kernel/firmware don’t solve my problem.)

For some years, I used Fedora (and I still love the community and have high respect for it).

Fedora simply does not work for me:

• Updated packages can/did break compatibility for stuff I need to get stuff done. Fine if Linux is your hobby, not acceptable if you need to deliver something
• In the industry, many times not the last recent packages of development environments are used (if you are lucky, you are only a few months or years behind), so having the most recent packages in Fedora helps me exactly zero
• With Debians 2 years release cycle (and more years of support), I can upgrade to the next version when it is appropriate for me (= 1-2 days when there is a slow week and the worst bugs have been found already)
• My setup/desktop is heavily customized and fully automated via IaC, no motivation to tweak this stuff constantly (rolling) or every 6-12 months (Fedora)
• From time to time I have to use software packages from 3rd parties, with Fedora, I might be one update way from breaking this software packages because of version incompatibilities (yes, I might pin a version of something to use a 3rd party software, but this might break Fedora updates (direct and transitive dependencies)
• I once had a cheap netbook for travel with an infamous chip set bug concerning sleep modes, which would be triggered by some kernels. You can imagine how it is to run Fedora, when you get often Kernel updates and the bug will be triggered or not after double digit numbers of minutes of work.

Of course, I could now start playing around with containerizing everything I need for work somehow and run something like Silverblue, perhaps I might do it someday, but then I would again need to update my IaC every 6-12months, would have to take care of overlays AND containers etc…

When people go ‘rolling’ or ‘Fedora’, they simply choose a different set of problems. I am happy we have choice and I can choose the trouble I have to life with.

On a more positive note: This also shows how far Linux has come along, I always play around with the latest/BETA Fedora Gnome/KDE images in a VM, and seriously don’t feel I am missing anything in Debian stable.

Debian systems are verified to work properly without subtle config breakages. You can run Debian practically unattended for a decade and it’s chug along. For people who prefer their device to actually work, and not just be a maintenance princess, it’s ideal.

Noob question?

You do seem confused though… Debian is both a distribution and a packaging system… the Debian Stable distribution takes a very conservative approach to updating packages, while Debian Sid (unstable) is more up-to-date while being more likely to break. While individual packages may be more stable when fully-updated, other packages that depend on them generally lag and “break” as they need updating to be able to adapt to underlying changes.

But the whole reason debian-based distros exist is because some people think they can strike a better balance between newness and stability. But it turns out that there is no optimal balance that satifies everyone.

Mint is a fine distro… but if you don’t like it, that is fine for you too. The only objection I have to your objection is that you seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater… the debian packaging system is very robust and is not intrinsically unlikely to be updated.

As someone not working in IT and not very knowledgeable on the subject, I’ve had way less issues with Manjaro than with Mint, despite reading everywhere that Mint “just works”. Especially with printers.

Unlike other commenters, I agree with you. Debian based systems are less suitable for desktop use, and imo is one of the reasons newcomers have frequent issues.

When installing common applications, newcomers tend to follow the windows ways of downloading an installer or a standalone executable from the Internet. They often do not stick with the package manager. This can cause breakage, as debian might expect you to have certain version of programs that are different from what the installer from the Internet expects. A rolling release distro is more likely to have versions that Internet installers expect.

To answer your question, I believe debian based distros are popular for desktop because they were already popular for server use before Linux desktop were significant.

Because people have the opposite experience and outlook from what you wrote.

I’m one of those people.

I’m surprised no one brought up the xz thing.

Debian specifically targeted by complex and nuanced multi prong attack involving social engineering and very good obfuscation. Defeated because stable (12 stable, mind you, not even 11 which is still in lots of use) was so slow that the attack was found in unstable.

I’m not sure what planet you are on but Debian is more stable and secure than anything I have ever tested. Maybe Debian gets a bad rap because of Ubuntu.