This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781

It has also been posted to lemmy.ca: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991


Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it’s important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone’s politics, and I’m certainly not here to argue with anyone about them.

My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen.

Moderators of lemmy.ml are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors.

This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml user ban citing “orientalism” as the reason for the ban.

Screenshot of my own instance’s modlog, as viewed by an admin

I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in !worldnews@lemmy.ml that had been removed with the reason “Orientalist article”.

Screenshot of banned user’s history on lemmy.ml

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

Here’s the article that was removed, titled “China may face succession crisis”. It was published by axios.com, which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having “a slight to moderate liberal bias” and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping.

https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/

I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml’s rules that would suggest that “orientalism”—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance’s front page, and not in !worldnews@lemmy.ml.

Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml

Screenshot of community rules for !worldnews@lemmy.ml

There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.

This is where I went from confused to concerned.

Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml’s moderation log.

Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It’s hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml moderators. My own instance’s mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml community. I’ve done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml moderators, but I can’t be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism.

Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China’s racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org reason: Orientalism

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don’t know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn’t behave like China. by @balerion@beehaw.org reason: Orientalism

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance’s or community’s explicitly stated rules.

Banned @0x815@feddit.de reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban expires: 9d ago

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org reason: Rule 1 and 2

Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog

I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml’s moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It’s only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules.

I’d like to raise some awareness about this, and I’d like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly.

I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don’t share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml’s rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.

  • OrangeSlice@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    14
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    2 years ago

    the users flinging loaded language and spreading FUD about the platform.

    Extremely dorky to do that on a federated site. Set up an instance and federate.

    Nobody seems to give a shit that all major social media is owned by sketchy billionaires who actually have the power to fuck shit up, but one FOSS developer is an ardent communist (but not known to be a member of any org or party where he could actually do anything (no offense)), and all of a sudden that somehow is an issue for just using the software (as intended by the dev!)

    • pineapple@lemmy.pineapplemachine.comOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Extremely dorky to do that on a federated site. Set up an instance and federate.

      Nobody seems to give a shit that all major social media is owned by sketchy billionaires who actually have the power to fuck shit up, but one FOSS developer is an ardent communist (but not known to be a member of any org or party where he could actually do anything (no offense)), and all of a sudden that somehow is an issue for just using the software (as intended by the dev!)

      I cannot speak for anyone but myself. But as the person who wrote this post, I hope that it has not been misunderstood as criticism of anyone’s politics or ideology. The developers are entitled to their opinions and beliefs.

      But people are also entitled to understand what rules they are subject to, and those rules have not been communicated clearly. That point is not disputable: Read the comments on this post to find quite a few examples of people who did not understand the intention behind how the rules were written.

      There is not a distinction here between failure to understand and failure to communicate. It is not constructive to blame either side. The reality is that one often must proactively attempt to communicate in a way that avoids such fundamental misunderstandings, and I think that it is in the interest of lemmy.ml’s admins and all the rest of us that the instance’s rules are communicated clearly.

      I do not expect anyone to change their opinions or beliefs. What I think is important is that the people coming to lemmy have the rules communicated to them in language that they can understand.

        • pineapple@lemmy.pineapplemachine.comOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          2 years ago

          I just want to ask you. Are we expected to teach liberals, that have racism and bigotry normalised into their heads by Reddit and western media/news, how to not be a racist and bigot, when all they spout is racist and bigot arguments, and accuse the ones trying to teach them via countering the nonsense arguments as “genociders”, “CCP/Putin shills”, “tankies” et al? Please tell us, mighty one, how we are supposed to stop this when liberals have fingers in their ears going lalalala without listening and accepting the facts we share, without downvoting and demeaning us?

          Are you so afraid of liberal downvotes and demeaning that you refuse to stand openly by your own beliefs? Do you not believe with enough conviction to even attempt to reach those who have been indoctrinated?

          • m532@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            2 years ago

            You act like you’re “just asking questions”, but now you’ve exposed yourself as what you really are: a bully.

            • pineapple@lemmy.pineapplemachine.comOP
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              2 years ago

              You act like you’re “just asking questions”, but now you’ve exposed yourself as what you really are: a bully.

              In what way do you see me as a bully?

              And what gave you the impression that I was “just asking questions”? I was not. I pointed out that a rule is being enforced without being clearly communicated, and I requested that the rule be clearly communicated.

              • m532@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                2 years ago

                Are you so afraid of liberal downvotes and demeaning that you refuse to stand openly by your own beliefs? Do you not believe with enough conviction to even attempt to reach those who have been indoctrinated?

                You want the nonwesterners to suffer through orientalist bullshit, bully

                • pineapple@lemmy.pineapplemachine.comOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  You want the nonwesterners to suffer through orientalist bullshit, bully

                  Don’t you think that there would be less orientalist bullshit, if Westerners knew in advance that they should not be posting it?