Gender isn’t assigned by the individual. Gender is assigned by parents, doctors, the community, and society broadly. Gender is an inherently social construction. Some people have misconstrued this to mean that gender is an individual construction. It is not. How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you. I understand that some people don’t identify with the gender that has been assigned to them, and thus want to change their gender assignment, and I empathize with those people, but whether or not they are able to do this is at least partially out of their control. Just because you see yourself a certain way, doesn’t mean others will see you that way, and, again we are defined not only by how we perceive ourselves, but how others perceive us.
Umm, people can definitely change how others view them. And if person A refuses to accept person B for who they are, that doesn’t define person B. It defines person A as an asshole.
And if person A refuses to accept person B for who they are, that doesn’t define person B. It defines person A as an asshole.
Agree. And that sentence is not only valid for gender, it’s for any other cultural label (like genders are).
If I say that I’m a gamer, or a fan of star wars, or whatever, and you’re spending your energy trying to convince the world I’m not what I said… it says much more about you than about me.
Using the original comment’s delineation as a guide: Nationality and ethnicity are cultural; i.e., akin to gender. Race is phenotypic; i.e., akin to sex. So, no.
But what kind of people put so much energy into trying to show person A that it is indeed the case? Person A may be an asshole to refuse the evidence, but person B could also be selfish to take a lot of energy into convincing person A of something that might not be apparent or even might not even reflect reality. It doesn’t mean that one is more right than the other or being disrespectful. Truth hurts after all. But then, if someone keep repeating the truth, maybe that person becomes an asshole. Or maybe we should ask this person if it is indeed an asshole to not misslabel them an asshole and hurt its feeling.
That doesn’t change much; just means people should place more value in what a person themself identifies with. Some people being inconsiderate doesn’t mean others should be too.
Gender isn’t assigned by the individual. Gender is assigned by parents, doctors, the community, and society broadly. Gender is an inherently social construction.
Social/cultural construction doesn’t mean that it has to be a collective construction.
Your gender is not different from something like… being a nerd, or being a fan of star wars. Someone might call you a nerd, but ultimately it’s up to you to embrace that label or not.
If someone says “John is a nerd”, and I ask John and he says he isn’t, then to everything that matters he isn’t.
And anyway, cultural things like gender, being a nerd, etc is absolutely unrelated to biology.
Social/cultural construction doesn’t mean that it has to be a collective construction.
It absolutely does mean that. We just live in this age of hyper individualism, where people attempt to atomize the individual from the collective, as though the individual is something wholly its own, but it isn’t. It’s not possible to separate the individual from the collective.
It’s not possible to separate the individual from the collective
Maybe you have a hard time having your opinion.
But it’s not fair to pin that on everywhere else in the world just because it’s like that for you. Lots of people have their own opinions, their own identities.
Just like, for example… EVERY SINGLE TRANS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. They have a majority of the collective saying they’re of the genre they don’t identify with at all, and they have their own individual opinion separate from the collective anyway.
So you either:
a) have an extreme case of social anxiety and can’t muster the courage to have an opinion that differs from the collective, and thinks everyone else in the world is like you (having a hard time understanding that different people have different opinions is also a psychological problem that is not rare).
or
b) your prejudice/homophobia/genderphobia is leaking.
Unless it’s reasonable for me to address you in business dealings as “smegma John” it seems we might put more emphasis on how someone identifies and wants to be called than what anyone else wants to impose on them
This is such a weird take. You’re sort of conflating gender assignment with gender perception, while sort of denying gender identity exists, while sort of asserting that gender perception should be authoritative (here lies the bigotry, IMO)
Firstly, the half-denial of gender identity existing / gender applying to individuals
I understand that some people don’t identify with the gender that has been assigned to them[…]
Unless your intended tone was mocking and there are some heavy use of air quotes that you did not write, you already accept that a person has their own perception of their gender.
Gender is an inherently social construction. Some people have misconstrued this to mean that gender is an individual construction. It is not. How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you.
But how others see you is not “gender assignment”. How the community sees you is not “gender assignment”. It is gender perception.
The purpose of gender assignment is equally for recordkeeping and for practical purposes in early childhood. Gender is typically assigned by the doctor attending to childbirth, and it’s done in accordance to biological sex characteristics because as another commenter mentioned, the majority of individuals are cisgender so it’s a sensible default. There are some differences in how you might use the bathroom depending on your genitalia, and (for better or for worse) many social norms, like modesty, are imposed/reflected through gender as well. I think parents of a child also have the authority to choose how they present their child’s gender to the world, but this is not something to be done trivially or without the child’s best interests in mind, e.g. for attention. It’s important to note that one’s understanding of their own gender identity is something that develops over time, and will develop differently for everyone.
Just because you see yourself a certain way, doesn’t mean others will see you that way, and, again we are defined not only by how we perceive ourselves, but how others perceive us.
Not really. It is more accurate to say that the importance of the balance of others’ vs. our own perception is itself a spectrum that will be different for everyone and can change fluidly over time. The battle between how much to value each is in fact a core component of many trans experiences.
On gender perception:
How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you.
Have you ever heard the expression “we are not our thoughts, we are our reaction to our thoughts?” The simplest way to put it is that mere perception is not enough to be a definition. The only authority on someone’s gender identity is that person. Gender expression is a cognitive shortcut. Sometimes gendered expressions are intentional, sometimes not. There are also agender people who place little or no value on gendered expression in general. If you’re interacting with someone in good faith and you are genuinely unsure how you should refer to them, it takes no time at all to simply ask if they have preferred pronouns. It should go without saying that it’s not your business to dispute anyone’s gender identity, whether they’re strangers or otherwise. You are free to think however you want, the problem is expressing those thoughts in ways that cause harm. Like, just don’t be a dick?
You’re thinking in the right direction, but you’re not quite there. Yes, gender gets assigned at birth as your biological phenotype (because the overwhelming majority of humans identify as cis gender). Humans become individuals and eventually realize that maybe their assigned gender does not fit them. At this point it becomes their own choice and it overrides any gender assignment given at birth. Depending on the individual, gender changes from something that’s assigned to something you assign yourself.
At this point it becomes their own choice and it overrides any gender assignment given at birth.
That’s not true. Your gender assignment is defined by how others treat you, how they interact with you, and that’s not completely under the individual’s control. You can’t choose how other people view you, at least not entirely.
Let’s do a mental exercise based on your assertion:
You identify as a man. You were born a man and have always outwardly displayed masculine characteristics. You are in a room with 100 people, and they collectively decide against your will that you are a masculine female and treat you as such.
Are you now a girl because the collective has decided that? Or are you still a man because that’s what you have always identified as?
Before you say “100 people does not make a society,” the number of people who decide that is irrelevant. Additionally, the reason ‘why’ they decide you are female is also, according to your logic, irrelevant. It just matters that they all agree.
You still think that gender is imposed on you by society?
This is the part I have a problem with:
Gender isn’t assigned by the individual. Gender is assigned by parents, doctors, the community, and society broadly. Gender is an inherently social construction. Some people have misconstrued this to mean that gender is an individual construction. It is not. How you see yourself is only part what makes you, you. You are also defined by how others see you. I understand that some people don’t identify with the gender that has been assigned to them, and thus want to change their gender assignment, and I empathize with those people, but whether or not they are able to do this is at least partially out of their control. Just because you see yourself a certain way, doesn’t mean others will see you that way, and, again we are defined not only by how we perceive ourselves, but how others perceive us.
Umm, people can definitely change how others view them. And if person A refuses to accept person B for who they are, that doesn’t define person B. It defines person A as an asshole.
Agree. And that sentence is not only valid for gender, it’s for any other cultural label (like genders are).
If I say that I’m a gamer, or a fan of star wars, or whatever, and you’re spending your energy trying to convince the world I’m not what I said… it says much more about you than about me.
How about race? Can white people elect to be Black?
Using the original comment’s delineation as a guide: Nationality and ethnicity are cultural; i.e., akin to gender. Race is phenotypic; i.e., akin to sex. So, no.
This is a bad faith argument, and at best a whataboutism. They aren’t remotely related.
But what kind of people put so much energy into trying to show person A that it is indeed the case? Person A may be an asshole to refuse the evidence, but person B could also be selfish to take a lot of energy into convincing person A of something that might not be apparent or even might not even reflect reality. It doesn’t mean that one is more right than the other or being disrespectful. Truth hurts after all. But then, if someone keep repeating the truth, maybe that person becomes an asshole. Or maybe we should ask this person if it is indeed an asshole to not misslabel them an asshole and hurt its feeling.
Describing intentionally misgendering someone as “truth” is simply transphobia. Be better.
That doesn’t change much; just means people should place more value in what a person themself identifies with. Some people being inconsiderate doesn’t mean others should be too.
Social/cultural construction doesn’t mean that it has to be a collective construction.
Your gender is not different from something like… being a nerd, or being a fan of star wars. Someone might call you a nerd, but ultimately it’s up to you to embrace that label or not.
If someone says “John is a nerd”, and I ask John and he says he isn’t, then to everything that matters he isn’t.
And anyway, cultural things like gender, being a nerd, etc is absolutely unrelated to biology.
It absolutely does mean that. We just live in this age of hyper individualism, where people attempt to atomize the individual from the collective, as though the individual is something wholly its own, but it isn’t. It’s not possible to separate the individual from the collective.
Maybe you have a hard time having your opinion.
But it’s not fair to pin that on everywhere else in the world just because it’s like that for you. Lots of people have their own opinions, their own identities.
Just like, for example… EVERY SINGLE TRANS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. They have a majority of the collective saying they’re of the genre they don’t identify with at all, and they have their own individual opinion separate from the collective anyway.
So you either:
a) have an extreme case of social anxiety and can’t muster the courage to have an opinion that differs from the collective, and thinks everyone else in the world is like you (having a hard time understanding that different people have different opinions is also a psychological problem that is not rare).
or
b) your prejudice/homophobia/genderphobia is leaking.
What’s it like, being from a planet with a hive mind?
Unless it’s reasonable for me to address you in business dealings as “smegma John” it seems we might put more emphasis on how someone identifies and wants to be called than what anyone else wants to impose on them
This is such a weird take. You’re sort of conflating gender assignment with gender perception, while sort of denying gender identity exists, while sort of asserting that gender perception should be authoritative (here lies the bigotry, IMO)
Firstly, the half-denial of gender identity existing / gender applying to individuals
The purpose of gender assignment is equally for recordkeeping and for practical purposes in early childhood. Gender is typically assigned by the doctor attending to childbirth, and it’s done in accordance to biological sex characteristics because as another commenter mentioned, the majority of individuals are cisgender so it’s a sensible default. There are some differences in how you might use the bathroom depending on your genitalia, and (for better or for worse) many social norms, like modesty, are imposed/reflected through gender as well. I think parents of a child also have the authority to choose how they present their child’s gender to the world, but this is not something to be done trivially or without the child’s best interests in mind, e.g. for attention. It’s important to note that one’s understanding of their own gender identity is something that develops over time, and will develop differently for everyone.
On gender perception:
You’re thinking in the right direction, but you’re not quite there. Yes, gender gets assigned at birth as your biological phenotype (because the overwhelming majority of humans identify as cis gender). Humans become individuals and eventually realize that maybe their assigned gender does not fit them. At this point it becomes their own choice and it overrides any gender assignment given at birth. Depending on the individual, gender changes from something that’s assigned to something you assign yourself.
That’s not true. Your gender assignment is defined by how others treat you, how they interact with you, and that’s not completely under the individual’s control. You can’t choose how other people view you, at least not entirely.
That’s a pretty absurd notion.
Let’s do a mental exercise based on your assertion:
You identify as a man. You were born a man and have always outwardly displayed masculine characteristics. You are in a room with 100 people, and they collectively decide against your will that you are a masculine female and treat you as such.
Are you now a girl because the collective has decided that? Or are you still a man because that’s what you have always identified as?
Before you say “100 people does not make a society,” the number of people who decide that is irrelevant. Additionally, the reason ‘why’ they decide you are female is also, according to your logic, irrelevant. It just matters that they all agree.
You still think that gender is imposed on you by society?