Well, the problem imo are often cis men and it is hard to have a safe space with them. I’ve just experienced too much abusive behavior by them and men usually help each other out and therefore promote abusive behavior.
I am deeply sorry about the abuse you experienced and think it’s unfair to paint an entire gender in that light. My mom was incredibly abusive and I would never blame all women for that, just her as an individual.
Well, my mom is abusive, too. But cis men being abusive is something structural. That is the difference between the two.
And sure, I know that cis men are just people like everybody else and they also suffer from patriarchy. But in the same time they just don’t show any (or not enough) progress in emancipating themselves from their roles as men. I’m not against the humans that are cis men per se, but I would love to see manhood abolished and these same people to be free themselves. But I guess the problem is that most of them have so many privileges and perceive themselves as the default humans that they have a hard time reflecting upon their role and their privileges.
while i am sympathetic to the how and why of this position–and i certainly don’t think you mean to come off this way–i would just like to chime in and say that at least some of this feels dangerously close to misandry and i can definitely see why people are uncomfortable with it beyond the usual objections to not being treated as the default.
Hm yes, I’m probably a bit more extreme in my position and I try to be reflective about what portion of it is a legitimate criticism and what is a trauma response. I get it has to do a lot with growing up perceived as a boy and being repeatedly penalized by society for not fulfilling the role of a boy/man that led me to my misandrist tendencies.
But apart from that, actually most of my friends have the policy to distrust cis men until they prove not to be assholes (with an unfortunately low success rate). I’m very much open to the idea of cis men emancipating themselves from gender roles and patriarchal expectations. But until this happens, it will be necessary for anyone who isn’t a cis men to distrust them and be careful around them.
(Btw, is there an acronym in English for saying “everyone that isn’t a cis men”? In German there is an acronym to say women, lesbians, inter, trans, nonbinary and agender people -> FLINTA*)
I would try to remember that we are in fact trying to form a safe space here which does include a number of cis men. I don’t want to invalidate your experiences at all, because some people are shitty people and as humans we tend to notice patterns, but your initial comment was rather callous toward people who haven’t done anything wrong.
That said, I appreciate this elaboration and clarification of your intent. When it’s always the same kind of people knocking you down, it can be hard not to make an immediate judgment of someone who has similar qualities and I can understand where you’re coming from even if I don’t agree. If every cat I ever met scratched me, the friendliest cat in the world is going to be viewed with suspicion. Just please try to remember that generalizations like that aren’t really nice to those they are directed at.
And it’s not only that cis men are frequently shitty, it is that they have such a hard time relflecting upon and sharing their privileges with others. I get it’s hard to step away from the perspective that you are the center of the universe when you’ve been told so since early childhood. But that just makes 95% of cis men assholes in my experience. And yes, I actually mean 95%. They treat you like an object or a human of second class*. And I’m sorry if I offend the remaining 4-5% of cis men, but it should be their responsibility to teach the others. All of my straight friends who are women either complain about not finding a suitable partner because the available cis men just don’t fulfill basic requirements, or they settle with the shitty behavior of cis men and then complain to me about it.
* Maybe this sounds like I’m surrounding myself with shitty people. But these are mostly progressive and “emancipatory” cis men I’m talking about.
This is incredibly misandrist, sexist and offensive. I am for all equality and this is clear bigotry targeting a gender and generalizing with made up statistics. This type of rhetoric is no different to me than a male incel spewing hatred about women, it’s unacceptable.
Beehaw apparently prides itself on being a welcome and inclusive community and this is completely counter to it. I cannot imagine a man being able to write the things you’re writing about women and getting away with it. You’ve already been warned by an admin that your rhetoric is misandrist and you keep going.
So is Beehaw actually an inclusive community or is it hypocritical and tolerating these types of comments about someone’s gender? I’d genuinely like to know. I had actually deleted my original account and have come back to make this one last comment. Beehaw defederates from instances like Lemmy.world for being problematic and yet I haven’t seen a single comment about women, men or anyone else that targets them to this level there. Is claiming 95% of a gender are awful acceptable to say here because it’s men? Or does this site actually strive for the equality it claims?
I disagree. Just like there is no “racism against white people”, sexism does not work both ways. There is a difference between saying something mean about some people and structural discrimination like racism and sexism. There is a whole established and centuries old structure giving cis men power and privileges. I can scream how I want here, but when I go out I still have to fear to be sexually assaulted, bullied or marginalized by cis men. In my view there is no safe space including cis men.
You do not seem to be familiar with feminist viewpoints. And it is obvious that you do not face sexism and this is then your privilege, i.e. that until now you didn’t even have to think about the perspective of people facing sexism. Hopefully someone will be there to explain this to you, I already did my part and have the feeling that you won’t listen to me anyway. This would be the moment now for the progressive cis men to step up and educate about sexism. So please, help me out here.
Yes it does work both ways, that’s a misandrist and sexist statement as well. I’m very well aware of what feminism is, I’ve been one my entire life and have studied it in school. My wife is the breadwinner in our family, I have a tattoo paying tribute to Lisbeth Salander (my favourite fictional character) and as a writer have made sure to put strong female characters at the forefront who aren’t reliant on men. I make an effort to support strong female characters in media. All of this despite having an abusive mom who I refused to allow to colour my views of all women.
That you are so dismissive of what I’m probably saying because I’m a man says more about you and where your values lay. You’d rather push people away who likely mostly agree with you because of their gender and your distrust and animosity towards them.
I showed this entire thread to my wife devoid of context and while she could see where you’re coming from, she argued that is not true feminism, just misandry and wanting “revenge” on men. To claim that you have the right to attack, insult and go after people because of their gender is not feminism, it’s misandry. These types of proclamations are not helpful and only creates more division. I say that as someone who has also voted left my entire life. This is very much a “men are the enemy, us vs them” attitude because of your experiences.
The fact that Beehaw continues to allow this rhetoric is incredibly hypocritical. What you’re claiming is that it’s okay to be hurtful and offensive to a gender because previously you lacked the power to do so. That is in no way acceptable and doesn’t make you much better than what you’re criticizing. If Beehaw tolerates this type of dialogue then they should fully support men doing the same (which they shouldn’t either). That is actual equality.
I am unlikely to return to this instance anymore as I find it extremely hypocritical and unwelcoming. That admins and mods will tolerate these kinds of comments attacking an entire gender is unfair, unequal and shows me that the mission statement they claim is false. “A petty hill to die on” should’ve been a lighthearted thread, not an excuse to repeatedly insult someone’s gender (which is a characteristic they can’t help).
Well, the problem imo are often cis men and it is hard to have a safe space with them. I’ve just experienced too much abusive behavior by them and men usually help each other out and therefore promote abusive behavior.
I am deeply sorry about the abuse you experienced and think it’s unfair to paint an entire gender in that light. My mom was incredibly abusive and I would never blame all women for that, just her as an individual.
Well, my mom is abusive, too. But cis men being abusive is something structural. That is the difference between the two.
And sure, I know that cis men are just people like everybody else and they also suffer from patriarchy. But in the same time they just don’t show any (or not enough) progress in emancipating themselves from their roles as men. I’m not against the humans that are cis men per se, but I would love to see manhood abolished and these same people to be free themselves. But I guess the problem is that most of them have so many privileges and perceive themselves as the default humans that they have a hard time reflecting upon their role and their privileges.
while i am sympathetic to the how and why of this position–and i certainly don’t think you mean to come off this way–i would just like to chime in and say that at least some of this feels dangerously close to misandry and i can definitely see why people are uncomfortable with it beyond the usual objections to not being treated as the default.
Hm yes, I’m probably a bit more extreme in my position and I try to be reflective about what portion of it is a legitimate criticism and what is a trauma response. I get it has to do a lot with growing up perceived as a boy and being repeatedly penalized by society for not fulfilling the role of a boy/man that led me to my misandrist tendencies.
But apart from that, actually most of my friends have the policy to distrust cis men until they prove not to be assholes (with an unfortunately low success rate). I’m very much open to the idea of cis men emancipating themselves from gender roles and patriarchal expectations. But until this happens, it will be necessary for anyone who isn’t a cis men to distrust them and be careful around them.
(Btw, is there an acronym in English for saying “everyone that isn’t a cis men”? In German there is an acronym to say women, lesbians, inter, trans, nonbinary and agender people -> FLINTA*)
I would try to remember that we are in fact trying to form a safe space here which does include a number of cis men. I don’t want to invalidate your experiences at all, because some people are shitty people and as humans we tend to notice patterns, but your initial comment was rather callous toward people who haven’t done anything wrong.
That said, I appreciate this elaboration and clarification of your intent. When it’s always the same kind of people knocking you down, it can be hard not to make an immediate judgment of someone who has similar qualities and I can understand where you’re coming from even if I don’t agree. If every cat I ever met scratched me, the friendliest cat in the world is going to be viewed with suspicion. Just please try to remember that generalizations like that aren’t really nice to those they are directed at.
I appreciate your comment :)
And it’s not only that cis men are frequently shitty, it is that they have such a hard time relflecting upon and sharing their privileges with others. I get it’s hard to step away from the perspective that you are the center of the universe when you’ve been told so since early childhood. But that just makes 95% of cis men assholes in my experience. And yes, I actually mean 95%. They treat you like an object or a human of second class*. And I’m sorry if I offend the remaining 4-5% of cis men, but it should be their responsibility to teach the others. All of my straight friends who are women either complain about not finding a suitable partner because the available cis men just don’t fulfill basic requirements, or they settle with the shitty behavior of cis men and then complain to me about it.
* Maybe this sounds like I’m surrounding myself with shitty people. But these are mostly progressive and “emancipatory” cis men I’m talking about.
This is incredibly misandrist, sexist and offensive. I am for all equality and this is clear bigotry targeting a gender and generalizing with made up statistics. This type of rhetoric is no different to me than a male incel spewing hatred about women, it’s unacceptable.
Beehaw apparently prides itself on being a welcome and inclusive community and this is completely counter to it. I cannot imagine a man being able to write the things you’re writing about women and getting away with it. You’ve already been warned by an admin that your rhetoric is misandrist and you keep going.
So is Beehaw actually an inclusive community or is it hypocritical and tolerating these types of comments about someone’s gender? I’d genuinely like to know. I had actually deleted my original account and have come back to make this one last comment. Beehaw defederates from instances like Lemmy.world for being problematic and yet I haven’t seen a single comment about women, men or anyone else that targets them to this level there. Is claiming 95% of a gender are awful acceptable to say here because it’s men? Or does this site actually strive for the equality it claims?
I disagree. Just like there is no “racism against white people”, sexism does not work both ways. There is a difference between saying something mean about some people and structural discrimination like racism and sexism. There is a whole established and centuries old structure giving cis men power and privileges. I can scream how I want here, but when I go out I still have to fear to be sexually assaulted, bullied or marginalized by cis men. In my view there is no safe space including cis men.
You do not seem to be familiar with feminist viewpoints. And it is obvious that you do not face sexism and this is then your privilege, i.e. that until now you didn’t even have to think about the perspective of people facing sexism. Hopefully someone will be there to explain this to you, I already did my part and have the feeling that you won’t listen to me anyway. This would be the moment now for the progressive cis men to step up and educate about sexism. So please, help me out here.
Yes it does work both ways, that’s a misandrist and sexist statement as well. I’m very well aware of what feminism is, I’ve been one my entire life and have studied it in school. My wife is the breadwinner in our family, I have a tattoo paying tribute to Lisbeth Salander (my favourite fictional character) and as a writer have made sure to put strong female characters at the forefront who aren’t reliant on men. I make an effort to support strong female characters in media. All of this despite having an abusive mom who I refused to allow to colour my views of all women.
That you are so dismissive of what I’m probably saying because I’m a man says more about you and where your values lay. You’d rather push people away who likely mostly agree with you because of their gender and your distrust and animosity towards them.
I showed this entire thread to my wife devoid of context and while she could see where you’re coming from, she argued that is not true feminism, just misandry and wanting “revenge” on men. To claim that you have the right to attack, insult and go after people because of their gender is not feminism, it’s misandry. These types of proclamations are not helpful and only creates more division. I say that as someone who has also voted left my entire life. This is very much a “men are the enemy, us vs them” attitude because of your experiences.
The fact that Beehaw continues to allow this rhetoric is incredibly hypocritical. What you’re claiming is that it’s okay to be hurtful and offensive to a gender because previously you lacked the power to do so. That is in no way acceptable and doesn’t make you much better than what you’re criticizing. If Beehaw tolerates this type of dialogue then they should fully support men doing the same (which they shouldn’t either). That is actual equality.
I am unlikely to return to this instance anymore as I find it extremely hypocritical and unwelcoming. That admins and mods will tolerate these kinds of comments attacking an entire gender is unfair, unequal and shows me that the mission statement they claim is false. “A petty hill to die on” should’ve been a lighthearted thread, not an excuse to repeatedly insult someone’s gender (which is a characteristic they can’t help).