- cross-posted to:
- microblogmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- microblogmemes@lemmy.world
Show transcript
Screenshot of a Mastodon toot by @ebassi@mastodon.social:
The whole open source community loves Milkshake Laptops, a lovely laptop company that has ethical values! 5 seconds later We regret to inform you the laptop company stans fascists
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I cannot understand why Nirav, the head of the company, would weigh in here instead of having the PR/Marketing team
ofor someone come up with an answer for this. Made it so much worse and I have such a bad feeling about them now.Maybe some Ben Franklin will help them “It takes many good deeds to build a reputation, and only one bad one to lose it.” “Never ruin an apology with an excuse.”
Wait this is about hyperland and a project made by DHH? You lemmyists sure are rabid…
It’s about not giving money to fascists.
Just get an old ThinkPad like me, problem solved!
IBM huh?
No, it’s Lenovo, but the kind that still has a CPU socket and a removable battery, one of which could have been a nice addition to framework if they didn’t insist on “modern design sensibilities”…
“modern design sensibilities”
How I dislike laptops not having trackpad buttons! No matter how good modern trackpads are, I still just want buttons. And lots of keys, and switches… and screws. Don’t care how clean and sleek modern laptops look, they are a tool for me.
- Bonus points for the trackpoint!
- Bonus points for the trackpoint!
BRING BACK THE CLIT STICK
Is that the same Lenovo with the backdoor bios shenanigans?
Duckduckgoed it, it seems it’s not that one.
You’re the kind of person who brings up the rootkit scandal from 20 years ago whenever Sony comes up
why would you ever forgive Sony for that
Because it’s been 20 years
and this means what to you?
It is my reason for boycotting Sony still.
Isn’t that like … the point of the post?
No its about Framework, Right now, sponsoring fascists.
As another example of this sort of thing, shopify, cloudflare, futo, jetbrains are sponsoring ladybird, while Kling apparently shares DHH’s views. It’s definitely generally bad to support a project led by this sort of person, and now that they know about it I think they should stop, but idk if i’d condemn the whole company over it. Especially as it often requires quite a bit of research to find out about that sort of stuff unless you were there when the social media drama happened.
i don’t think unknowingly supporting shitty people is that bad. mistakes happen, after all.
knowingly supporting shitty people, and then saying it’s fine because you’re wanting to create a big tent that includes everyone, even fascists, is bad! very bad!
Also, if you have semi-plausible deniability that you didn’t know, but you had an inkling and you didn’t want to find out… That’s not great either.
Not knowing isn’t a full excuse if you actively try to not find out.
“let’s sit Nazis at our table so we get all viewpoints!”
while Kling apparently shares DHH’s views
Who are those people and why are their views important?
kling is the creator/head of the ladybird browser. dhh is the creator of ruby on rails, but he’s now working on omarchy, which is basically just a collection of dotfiles for arch but people love for some reaso (personal rant).
the reason that their views are important is because a lot of tech companies, even ones that were previously reputable like framework, have been pouring a lot of money into these. this is especially relevant for omarchy, since afaik dhh is the only person working on it, making donations to omarchy basically be direct donations to dhh himself.
while kling has done some questionable things, dhh is basically just a straight up fascist, which really puts the principles of the companies giving money and promotion to him (like framework) into question
omg techtakes mentioned :3
i wrote grants for a few years and i’m kind of surprised they wouldn’t do that due diligence
This is very in the weeds. They sponsor open source projects as a little side thing. One of the projects they sponsored is very bad, and they were publicly called out about it less than 24 hours ago. Not even enough time to make a proper response. I can’t even find on their website where they list the open source projects they sponsor. Open source sponsorship was never a major part of their business.
This is very new news. Give them time and form your opinion on their response. Its likely that only a small subset of the team works on open source sponsorship, so most of those in charge of the company were likely unaware until now.
edit: fixed several undecillion minor typos
first of all, its two projects. second both got most promotion by them then other projects they sponsered. third their official people (not sure how high up but still) have responded in the thread badly. fourth the thread has no positive affirmation that they care about the fascism support but more “this specific case is probably not that”, its not hard to say u dont support fascists
The assumption is that they believe a not-insignificant portion of their customers are fascist or fascist-adjacent.
If everyone upset about this boycotted and tanked their bottom line, they’d probably shift gears in a heartbeat.
But I suspect that the number of fascist/fascist-adjacent customers is high enough that they need both groups’ money to survive.
Most of the laptops framework sells are sold with a windows license. Only a small subset of their small subset of Linux customers are technical enough to consider which compositor they’re using, and even fewer of them are even aware that hyperland exists and is a fascist project.
This is very in the weeds. Considering this deliberately marketing to fascists, or indicative of the company’s assumptions about their customers broadly is an insane stretch.
Framework sells microsoft products in their store, when microsoft is actively involved in helping the IDF commit genocide in Gaza. Framework bundles microsoft products in the pre-built versions of their computers. That is far more indicative of their attitudes to their customers than their donations to open source.
Keep the pressure on, do what you can to make open source better and uninviting to fascists, but keep perspective of reality while you do it.
Most of the laptops framework sells are sold with a windows license.
Is this true? I thought they were specifically marketed to tech people because of the repairability and modularity. I didn’t even know Windows users were aware that Framework exists.
Well being tolerant with fascists is a no no.
We’re taking about being tolerant with a company that’s tolerant of fascists.
If I’m tolerant of that, would you tolerate me? Where do we draw the line?
Not trolling, but I get that it sounds that way .
If I’m tolerant of that, would you tolerate me? Where do we draw the line?
You have to tolerate everyone until they are actively intolerant. If you jump the gun on not tolerating someone or something too early, then you’re being intolerant.
You have to tolerate everyone until they are actively intolerant
We’re talking about fascists, them being intolerant is literally part of their description.
Beliefs are allowed to be intolerant, it’s acting upon them that is the issue. The tolerant utopia isn’t one where everyone agrees, it’s where everyone agrees to leave each other alone until someone isn’t leaving someone else alone.
This is how fascists gain absolute control. We’re seeing it unfold right now
Examples of acting upon your intolerance:
- Spreading hate on social media
- Giving money to those people
- Voting for intolerance & hate (i.e. politically)
- Helping them in their intolerance against others by actively tolerating them (tolerance paradoxon in action)
Guess what applies to every fascist and company we’re currently talking about. They do not “leave others alone” as you put it, and Framework strengthens their position through willful ignorance. So for the love of anything that is good, stop with your rhetorical nonsense.
Isn’t preaching intollerance just a different mechanism to have others be victimized by intolerance?
I mean, if you’re convincing others to do something, fully in the knowledge that they will do it, whilst you did not do the deed yourself you certainly purposefully made it happen.
At the risk of Goodwin-ing my own post, Hitler didn’t directly murder many people (if any), yet he murdered millions.
Or coming at it from another side, is somebody who gives rope to members of the KKK during a linching of a black person knowing that they’ll use it kill that person not acting intolerant?
My point being that whilst the boundary between being deemed as acting intolerant or not is indeed as you say not merelly the holding intolerant beliefs, that boundary is also not all the way at only directly acting in intolerant ways being intolerant acting.
It makes sense that preaching intolerance is acting in an intolerant way if one expects it will lead to acts of intolerance from others - it has the same objective, just using others as tools - and that at least some forms of knowingly supporting somebody who directly commits intolerant acts is itself an intolerant act because it knowingly enables the intolerant acts of others.
The assumption is that they believe a not-insignificant portion of their customers are fascist or fascist-adjacent.
If they actually think that, they have an even worse market research department than microsoft.
From what I read, it sounds like they were supporting a bunch of different projects based on “oh hey this is kind of neat and could be useful” and didn’t really look in to the background of the relevant devs.
The thread on their forum reads like them wandering in to something, reading the objection as some obscure beef and running the standard PR approach without really realizing what a mess they just stuck their foot into.
Hopefully their cage will be rattled enough to look in to it and pull back.
Yeah the user who responds by saying:
This is not a “I do not like this distribution” kind of argument.
This is a “the people you are sending my money to want me and my friends dead or deported” kind of argument.
The “big tent” argument works fine if everyone plays by some basic civil rules of understanding. Stuff like code of conducts, moderation, anti-racism, surely those things we agree on? A big tent won’t work if you let in people that want to exterminate the others.
Kind of nails it I think. For what it’s worth I don’t think there’s any malicious intent on Framework’s part necessarily, I think maybe they’ve just naively stepped on a bit of a landmine? But still, not ideal.
Someone else struck an important chord:
Additional edit: I think it’s quite telling that a community response of “I’m not happy with this development, please consider changing your mind or I’m going to spend my money elsewhere” is now being met in this thread with responses including inflammatory fascist and racist talking points, transphobia, etc, while Framework says and does nothing about it. It shows exactly the sorts of things Framework is permitting in their “big tent” by rewarding right-wing extremists with money and sponsorship. What a way to tank a community that – a few years ago at least – seemed pretty welcoming and inclusive.
The community defense is riddled with typical far-right talking points. “What do you mean you don’t want to include literal nazis in your community? What ever happened to tolerance?”
Well that’s all very disappointing.
There truly is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Intolerance will not be tolerated.
Anyone want to give some context here?
I dunno man, people being furious about a very loose potential fascist association in an open source project while using a platform whose lead developer is a tankie. Kinda wild yelling at framework while supporting people who deny China’s human rights abuses.
How is using Lemmy supporting the tankie devs? I am not donating money or hardware to them.
Every time someone finds Lemmy for the first time, they have a chance to start with Lemmy.ml . It’s kind of like how reading used Harry Potter books and talking about the stories indirectly keep it relevant and enrich JK through mercy, licenses, etc…
Without arguing politics, the world is sliding very quickly towards facism and being on guard against it is incredibly important. I’m not buying a laptop and putting money in the pockets of someone who may then donate to or fund facism. None of that applies to a developer of a free open source software whose political ideal world is not rapidly approaching.
Yeah: literally the only thing the developer of Lemmy gains from people using their software is kudos as a techie.
Letting that person feel a bit better because of having another user is a universe away in terms of “supporting” them from actually funding them.
Did tankies bomb the abortion clinics or kill LGBTQ people? Maybe they lynched poc people too like fascists. idk, because they are literally the same.
Wait, did the dude from Hyprland bomb clinics?
Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about fascists. They are the ones bombing clinics. I dont know about the dude…
And tankies supported rolling tanks into countries where the people wanted democracy, that’s where the name comes from.
They still support authoritarian and fascist regimes committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, but because it ✨anti western fascism✨ it’s fine.I agree with you…?
Oh, good.
Your comments read, like you considered online tankies to be fine when they aren’t personally committing atrocities, while saying all fascists supporters are as bad as the people acting on that shit.
Remind me again what Russia does to LGBTQ+ people. Or China?
That’s who tankies support. Not so different, despite your plain strawmanning.
Oh right, dbzer instance. Tankie in denial.
Tankies might support those countries but they dont do those acts themselves like fascists. They dont have same beliefs as fascists.
My instance doesnt support any kind of imperialism. That includes china and russia. Do you know what anarchism is?
Hold the phone, you’re saying the hyperland devs bombed abortion clinics?
Tell me, where did I talked about the hyperland devs?
Damn, you right, you never actually did mention them.
So who are the people you’re referring to in this thread?
Wut
I envy your grass touching abilities
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I legit scrolled down on my feed and found this
If the community reacts super strongly to this before framework even has the chance to properly investigate, respond, and react to this kind of issue, why would they ever want to risk investing in open source projects in the future? Come on, people. Give them time and if you have to hate on a company hate on the bigger ones that do these sorts of things on purpose and get away with it. I understand informing Framework and putting pressure on them to fix things, but there’s such a thing as going too far.
The community reacts so strongly because they made clear it’s a deliberate choice.
If it weren’t for the out of touch, deeply offensive responses they already made, this likely would not have blown up. The fact that they responded in such a dismissive, disgusting way is the reason this is news.
I would have been happy with a corpo
“We will be reviewing our philanthropic practices going forward.”
With pure neutral tone and no mention of the politics.
That’s the corpo correct answer. And its concerning they didn’t give that.
They already made one (very poor) response and that’s what’s got most people doubling down to keep the pressure on them to change their stance. I really dont see how a bunch of forum posts could possibly be “too far”.
Should have investigated before supporting a fascist then. I won’t shed a single tear.
I have a big tent too but you know who’s not under it? Fascists
Can I come in please? I’d love to be somewhere fascisn’t.
Not that guy. Snoop ain’t welcome.
Yeah just riffing on “fa-shizzint” sounding like the 90s NoCal slang he popularized lol
Some of his early stuff is probably included in a couple of my themed playlists, but he wouldn’t even make my top 10 favs of his era, and since then I’ve only known him for his faux gangsta brand he sells to corporations who want to promote 420-themed merch to teenage suburban white boys who make smoking their whole personality. No opinion on him otherwise.
Is there some other scandal I should be aware of?
He performed for Trump’s inauguration celebration.
Oh gross, that’s worse than his usual selling out. Fuck that guy
Thank you for the heads up
Yeah he recently said some idiotic homophobic shit
Ah OK. I guess that tracks. 90s rap had a lot of casual homophobia. Still, would’ve hoped the successful old heads of that era had managed to grow up a little since then smh
Thanks 🙏
if system76 turns out to be shitheads imma blow up the earth with a illudium q-36 explosive space modulator
they personally fucked me over years ago on a screen replacement i was willing to pay for.
they wanted to charge me 600 usd just for the panel that was available on aliexpress for 80
ended up doing it myself, and then spending 80k usd on a different company’s hardware for the company i worked for that used linux desktops
I doubt system76 would make the mistake, primarily because they have no reason whatsoever to fund any other distro and DE other than Pop_OS and Cosmic.
That sounds like a fair and measured response. I approve.
context: https://lemmy.world/post/37098894
so Hyprland is made by Facist, is this correct? never heard of that, but i wanted to use it at some point, guess i wont be doing that then, good to know
from what i’ve seen, hyprland’s community is highly toxic and rife with fascists. is the maintainer a fascist? idk, but you know what they say about nazi bars
the other project framework is under fire for supporting, omarchy, is proudly made by DHH, who is a known far-right racist. this one is not up for debate
Damn it. I was really excited to use Omarchy for my next laptop. Glad I saw this before I made the switch :/
I don’t know who the creator is, but when I saw that in promotional materials for the distro, he uses Grok’s website and there is even dedicated Grok’s shortcut in the distro. I was like, I’m 89% sure this guy is maga nutjob.
That’s why I’m concerned about the ladybird browser, because in the monthly updates, the guy almost always goes to the Grog’s website.
What is with fascists and unintuitive keyboard-heavy interfaces?
I never had contact with this part of the hyprland community. I had quiet son in dep discussions with maintainers and a currently 5k lines deep in, in removing technical depts from the codebase.
I never had anything but pleasent communications.
I would love to see some examples (and if someone uses the terms highly toxic and rife with fascist I expect a lot examples) of this.
Be aware, as a German, I am highly sensitive on the missuse of the term fascist. For example many use the term fascist to describe Trump. That is not true. Trump is straight out a fucking Neo Nazi
many use the term fascist to describe Trump. That is not true. Trump is straight out a fucking Neo Nazi
can you explain that distinction? I was under the impression that neo nazis were fascists.
Yes they are. It is just more precise. Fascism itself is not inherently racist or has some kind of master race. Neo Nazis do.
And of course calling him a fascist is not inherently false. But just leaves out 80% of it
Eh I would point out that fascism doesn’t need to be racist to be evil, AND that there’s a reason why fascism is the preferred form of government for racists.
So, like, you’re not technically wrong but I think the point you’re making is bordering on moot.
Fascism is bad. Racism is bad. Most racists are fascists. Many fascists are racists.
The venn diagram of fascists and bigots of one type or another is damn close to a perfect circle
It was ja joke. Someone who is very particular about the meaning of words is sometimes called a “word Nazi” but it should be “word fascist”. Tried to play on it and forgotten that nobody outside Germany has any association with this m)
What, fascism is definitely inherently racist. Everything boils down to people with certain qualities are more fit to rule and should be the ones filling the community.
Nope, sry to be a little bit picky here but the definition of a Nazi is more or less “rassist fascist”. But bot vice versa. Have for example a look atBrazilians integralism. Or Salazar’s regime in Portugal .
If you weaken those definitions you will trivialize what Nazis did. It is so so so much worse then “simple facism”, pleas excuse this awful term in lack of any better
they’re only fascist if they come from the fasces region of italy, otherwise its neo nazi.
No it’s sparkling supremacists
not this again
Sorry but this is just stupid. Even for 196, where we all go after putting out last brain cells in the jar on the nightstand.
Um, it’s obviously a joke. It’s a play on common gatekeeping around champagne the beverage technically only being called champagne if it comes from Champagne, Italy.
this is the first i’m hearing about it and i’m a year or more into using hyprland, which is frustrating. i tend to avoid discord communities in favor of just reading documentation though.
Impossible to tell. Not a good person for sure, but fascist, probably not. The precipitating event happened on the Hyprland discord, which was unmoderated at the time. Someone made transphobic remarks. Drew DeVault (a big-mouthed idealist with extreme opinions and thin skin) kicked Hyprland out of the Freedesktop project for this, and wrote a wordy blog post criticising the community. Then, because media literacy is fucking dead, people who already agreed with DeVault’s views took it at face value and ran with it to chase the Woozle.
The truth is somewhere between the extremes, and if that one article that indirectly refers to the incident is enough for you to make such a conclusion… you and DeVault would get along just fine.
(edit) I haven’t used Hyprland for over a year and have been out of the loop, this info might be outdated.
This guy is full of shit. He’s a Lemmy.world mod and had to lock the meme about this because it wasn’t lining up with his world view and he’s being down voted.
He’s not arguing in good faith. Just desperate. 🤡
this comment undermines what happened as “someone made transphobic remarks” when there was more than “someone” and more than “transphobia” (not that just one person saying transphobic bs makes it not bad, but saying its a single incident and not a repeated common thread in that community is undermines at the very least).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8SiRr7qWUc This video covers is like how an outsider would so imo its good enough info on this
Here’s hoping for a new official response that takes these concerns much more seriously and commits to a structure that doesnt allow for these types of issues to come up again. I had just finally decided on framework for my next laptop, but I’ll happily spend my money elsewhere if this isnt resolved very differently from how they first hoped to sweep it away.
Sorry to disappoint you, but, well… https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/28
I wouldn’t call that an official response.
A deeply concerning response from the CEO, but a forum response isn’t the same as an announcement about policy change or something.
Im mad but I’m willing to give them time to grapple with the realities of the box they opened to see how they attempt to close it.
There’s more by now. They doubled down on their policy once more, with once again willful ignorance of who they’re supporting. https://xcancel.com/cmonkey/status/1976493945627766909
Lots of blue checks, AI Avis, and Trade + Crosses in usernames.
Reminds me of Milkshake Proton Privacy Services
wait what did proton do
Here’s the jist of it. Essentially the CEO praised the Republicans/Trump on social media.
well fuck, thanks for the info
Yeah, this was so disappointing
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God damn it, Framework, cmon
Please don’t keep this title if the post reaches the frontpages
It has only been 12h, and they only put up one (awful) placeholder response. Give them a bit of time to look into things before telling the headline-readers to never buy their stuff
i haven’t told anyone to do anything; but even then, shouldn’t it be goal to put pressure on them so they change course?
Maybe I’m being a bit too nervous, but companies like Fairphone or Framework rely on goodwill from technical people who are ready to pay more for less stuff to encourage their politics. If poeple categorize them as non-rule, they are not going to pay the premium. I think, for a lemmy user, that would set the odds of buying at near-0. again, maybe i’m being too dramatic
I agree that putting pressure this way is a good thing, but the pressure needs to be conditional. If you just mark them as dead before giving them a chance to correct course, they are better off reaching all the way for the customer base of “apolitical” users. The ebassi screen has a parodic tone that reduces the certainty and definitiveness (people will just put FW into question rather than fully discard it. i think), and avoids citing the name directly, limiting the damage to people who already have some understanding of the situation
anyways at this point I think there is enough threat to elicit a reaction on their part, and that we should wait for them before burning everything down. and I hope they can just have a quick fact check and everything will be fine and they will actually have money to donate because they won’t if they keep up the vibe of the first response
I’m being way overinvested ok byeee
companies like Fairphone or Framework rely on goodwill from technical people who are ready to pay more for less stuff to encourage their politics. If poeple categorize them as non-rule, they are not going to pay the premium.
Then they REALLY should have thought of that before they fucked the goat.
If poeple categorize them as non-rule, they are not going to pay the premium. I think, for a lemmy user, that would set the odds of buying at near-0. again, maybe i’m being too dramatic
Correct, I will not be spending extra money for organizations that go around talking about how they want to give their money to people who’d rather I not exist solely based on my demographics.
Sure, but there are too many people here who will see this post and internalize “Framework evil” for the rest of their lives, when a large company like that just needs more time to properly investigate, respond, and react to issues.
I’m looking at those people who internalized “Proton evil” way too quickly, for example.
I don’t think you should have to adjust this post at all, but unfortunately this is how things are.
Most of what you said is good, but the “proton evil” saga was not a quick one at all. The CEO keeps following up and doubling down, over and over, to this day. It isn’t an “I misspoke, my bad it won’t happen again” situation.
Of course, do further research and form your own opinon, but this conversation is tiring. I really am not a huge fan of proton, but it really seems like I am from the outside from how much bs I feel the urge to swat away from them.
that article is kinda bad
genuinely thinking being asian stops you from being a white supremacist is lol
Yeah that point is wack
this conversation is tiring
There is a simple solution here. Stop having it.
Would be nice to have that kind of self control
people who internalized “Proton evil” way too quickly, for example.
Is there a reason not to take it seriously that their CEO praised Trump?
Take it seriously, but with the right amount. Yes, the statement was concerning, no it was not a statement (in my opinion, because yes this is subjective) strong enough to warrant cancelling the whole company when it was a single board member being dumb, while the rest of the company continues to act in good faith. Words can be loud, but actions are louder, and I truly believe the response has been blown out of proportion.
