It’s annexing 7/8 at the moment, as pointed out, and you seem to ignore.
for imperialist super-profits. It’s not exporting capital, it’s not trying to gain access to resources.
So it exports grain and oil, mines rare earths and coal for… anti-profits? At loss? It would claim to the contrary, so are you wrong or are Russian state media wrong?
The purpose of the SMO is to gain the land buffer and demillitarize Ukraine so that it is no longer a threat.
Even if that were the stated objective (and not the strategic ambiguity that has been going on since 2014); Ukraine only became a threat after it was invaded, after a comically corrupt pro-Russian leader was ejected. And what has since the SMO achieved? Ukraine is more militarized and more in favour of NATO than ever before. 2 states bordering Russia joined NATO. NATO gained access to first hand experience against Russian army and a testing ground against it weapons and tactics. There’s also catastrophic losses, numbers of which you will dispute, but I encourage you read up ru mil-bloggers, and do read between the lines as is the eastern tradition. So it’s a complete failure, and even if it wasn’t… What would be the difference?
NATO’s power is high tech long range weapons, not mass tank armies that need Ukrainian steppes. And even if any one attempted there would be a nuclear response, so why would any one try that? This makes absolutely no sense, no matter how many times you repeat the line.
Crimea is strategically located between Ukraine and Russia, yes.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it was strategically located inside of Ukraine, wasn’t it? And than someone decided to occupy it, even tho in no way what so ever it could be a land bridge, which is your claimed rationale? How was it strategical against Russia?
There’s zero chance you actually looked at the sources I provided in any real depth.
You guys use the same examples over and over, and I had a few of these discussions already.
Kiev has been at war with the Donbass region for a decade,
No one is questioning that. Only you ignore that is because Russia occupied that region with the exact same scenario as they used against Georgia before.
There’s not a single person saying that the Donbass region should look like the surface of the moon or that the shelling has been going on 24 hours a day for the last decade, this is just nonsense.
Weird, maybe I somehow misread your statement of
bellicose neighbor that was shelling ethnic Russians in Donbass for a decade.
Because we both know you’re referring to a manufactured propaganda item used as casus belli, that could not be proved outside of Russian/aligned media. You could compare pictures of any Ukrainian front line city with these of Donbas and would be faced with a rather radical discrepancy.
You have no actual counter to the Marxist analysis of imperialism, so you attack the liberal Hobson instead
I’m addressing it since that is a theory you initially claimed to subscribe to, check your own comments. And as stated; even if you would follow the Leninist reinterpretation there’s no point in me addressing it, since you then ignore the facts of Russia’s exploitative economy and the fact it is a capitalist state like any other with concentration of wealth not much different from USA. In fact oddly enough most “western” capitalist countries seem to have a more egalitarian wealth division than Russia.
Overall, everyone was uplifted.
Obviously not everyone, but the masses, yes - I’m not questioning that.
The planned economy required planned production and distribution at a multi-national scale, and did not have the same profit motive that drives imperialism.
Yeah, I could kinda agree with that. Also it didn’t work out, obviously. But let’s make it funnier and fit Afghanistan into your lovely fairly-tale. That was clearly in favour of the local population? Or just to secure the crucial supply of poppy seed to the population of RSFSR as it became aware of the fact that the central planning brought the economy of a system spanning two continents and a European bread basket to a point where it could not feed it’s own population reliably?
See, the thing is; I’m very much not a fan of market economy, I see some positives of the communist regime in my country. But I also see it’s murderous failures and what seems to differentiate our positions is that I can remember the fall of Soviet Union and seen it in Moscow itself before the fall of the RSFSR and in my country before that. What you read about in glorifying brochures I’ve seen. It was a failure, and that any honest person who lived though it will tell you. It collapsed from day to day, and suddenly there’s no food. It was not a resilient system, it was not an effective system, the waste was astronomical and the lack of rationality made entire nations starve. It collapsed the economy and alienated the people beyond the conditions that brought it to be. In it’s ruined social hellscape it gave birth to a new kleptocratic oligarchic state that you for some deeply absurd reason seem to support, even tho there is clearly no interest with marxism-leninism on it’s part.
I don’t support imperialism in any way.
The only rational explanation for your support of this war would be if you’re a Russian nationalist. This I could understand. Detest, but consider it rational in it’s crooked way.
You misframe my own points
Half of your points is claiming things are the way you imagine them, because you do. I’m not going after every fallacy you believe in (like the tiny thing of ownership in Chinese economy). I’m just hoping you’ll actually question some of the stuff you try to push on to others that’s ostensibly false or misguided.
-Selling commodities is not imperialism. I said export of capital. Commodities can function as capital, but in selling them through export these are not exported as capital.
-The IMF wanted Ukraine to destroy its safety nets for loans, Ukraine’s ousted president went with the Russian loan that didn’t. It’s as simple as that.
-Russia is achieving its goals with respect to the SMO. Crimea was in Ukraine, but voted to join Russia.
-Ukraine has been at war with the Donbass region for a decade. This is fact.
-I’ve never said Russia was socialist, or a model to emulate. I’m aware of the wealth disparity.
-The USSR had stable food supply. It was a remarkably effective system, and capitalism has been devastating for it.
-I don’t support imperialism. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, and my opinions are in line with that.
All in all, none of your points are worth responding to in any greater depth than that. They’re all coated in doublespeak and anecdote.
The only definition of imperialism you accept contradicts every common dictionary definition and servers the one country where it was mostly developed. Ok, no point in discussing that further. Just one final question then.
Let’s theoretically accept “SMO” is to defend against NATO and only about the 4 oblasts and you claim “land bridge”. According to recent demands they are Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk, yes? So; why? Land bridge to what?
It’s 630 km from Moscow to Luhansk, 730 to Donetsk, 860 to Zaporizhzhia, 980 to Kherson.
It’s 500 km from Chernichiv oblast, 450 km from Sumy oblast to downtown Moscow. About half an hour of flight for a subsonic Tomahawk, few minutes for a hypersonic rocket. Russia occupied that area but retreated, mostly even before Ukrainian counter attacks. If you have a look at a map access to Russia proper is broadly open from the “pro-NATO regime” terrain. Moscow is also closer then the 4 oblasts from Latvia, and marginally more distant from Estonia and Finland, so 3 NATO states together some 8% of Russias border? There’s 8 Ukrainian oblasts Russia is not making any claims against closer to Moscow then Zaporizhzhia.
Why are only resource rich regions of east on southern Ukraine occupied and not the ones closest to key industrial and administrative region of Russia? And if you’re about to claim that there’s anything so important in the south - Turkey, the second biggest NATO army is 200km from Russian border to the south or less then the Moscow-Donbas distance if they wanted to hit most of Russian south over the sea. Is there some “materialist” reading of the map I’m not understanding?
No, the definition of imperialism as a system of international extraction is consistent and is the most widely used. The west is not the world.
Secondly, it’s not about absolute proximity, but the terrain and capability of moving troops and materiel through. You keep relying on metrics that don’t actually matter nearly as much, you did it earlier too when you thought socialism was a ratio thing.
Im not from the west, you yourself confirmed russia is engaged in extraction and is a capitalist country, and ML definition is not used outside of specialised discourse. You’re just going “well akshuly…”
It’s not about absolute proximity, but the terrain and capability of moving troops and materiel through.
Did you even look at a topo map before spewing this nonsense?
Doing a few hundred km detour to bypass the mighty peaks of 400 m over sea level while requireing many more river passages is something you think any one would consider? Why?
Historically every key invasion from the west (Polish, French, German) rolled pretty much straight on to Moscow. The only notable exception being the Crimean one, coming from the south and closer to the route you seem to be picturing. Unless NATO is quietly assembling a cavalry force in place of it’s 5th generation fighter and global reach drone force this might not be a serious concern for anyone since 15th century.
No, the idea that imperialism is about extraction and not about vague “influence” is the dominant understanding in the global south, China, etc. It’s dominant because it has clear roots and causes, as well as mechanics. It’s an established process rather than a vibe.
Secondly, as I had already stated, the fact that Ukraine was increasingly belligerant and warming up to NATO was why the war kicked off. Location plays a part, as Russia isn’t going to go to war with, say, Israel despite Ukraine being similarly used by the US. I don’t know why you keep forgetting things we’ve already covered.
As for the ratio thing, you tried to show GDP ratios and whatnot even though I said what matters in determining if a system is capitalist or socialist is whichever is principle. You just kinda brushed that under the rug and made up your own definition to attack. You’ve done similar things to it many times here.
Wonder why I’m having trouble understanding your point?
Ukraine was increasingly belligerant and warming up to NATO was why the war kicked off
So Ukraine has no right to self determination if Russian influence might wane? And if location plays part, why are the bases on the border with Norway and Finland empty? Why is the south of Ukraine occupied and not the entire border? Why does that align with rousources maps?
Why do you look at a historically imperialist country, with hundreds of years of subjecting other nations, and are surprised its neighbors might want to join a millitary aliance against it. Why are you acting like a russian nationalist ignoring the interest of any other etnicity/community/nation of the region? You said yourself its just another capitalist state by now.
even though I said what matters in determining if a system is capitalist or socialist is whichever is principle
Ah, you mean your claim that China is socialist despite its deep commitment to capitalist exploitation of its workforce and majority private control of it’s enterprise. But they state their socialism, so that’s ok? Im afraid to ask about your take on NSDAP, or did 3rd reich “export capital”?
This may surprise you, but just because you state something does not make it reality. You can call exploitation of the working class socialism if you wish, does not make it so.
Ukraine is right on Russia’s doorstep, is still at active war with Donetsk and Luhansk, and was increasingly belligerant and building up troops in the Donbass while getting closer to NATO. Norway and Finland are not at active war and are not increasingly belligerant towards Russia beyond the usual condemnations. Self-determination, morals, etc are not the driving reasons for why this war is happening. Why not support the rights of Donetsk and Luhansk to self determination? Why are you acting like a Banderite ignoring the interest of any other etnicity/community/nation of the region?
I know Russia is capitalist. I also know that it isn’t at war with Kiev to plunder Ukraine.
As for China, I already explained, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned:
Markets are not capitalism, nor are markets incompatible with socialism. China is in the developing phases of socialism, they can’t just nationalize all industry overnight without serious problems arising:
I know you aren’t a Marxist, so I’m not sure why you’re so obsessed with misunderstanding socialism.
The Nazis were imperialist, and went to war specifically to try to create new colonies. This is well-documented.
Which were occupied by Russia, so you’re claiming they can not defend against a foreign invasion of their borders. If you did not notice Putin admitted it was Russian millitary taking them over initially.
and was increasingly belligerant and building up troops in the Donbass while getting closer to NATO.
So is Finland.
Norway and Finland are not at active war and are not increasingly belligerant towards Russia beyond the usual condemnations.
Pretty sure they are very openly arming themselves and Ukraine.
Self-determination, morals, etc are not the driving reasons for why this war is happening.
Unless its a defensive war which it is for Ukraine.
Why not support the rights of Donetsk and Luhansk to self determination?
Because they are fake, as admitted by Putin, and as practiced before by the “peoples republics” in Georgia, that are now mostly abandoned and forced into merging with Russia proper, as the ukrainian once already were.
Why are you acting like a Banderite ignoring the interest of any other etnicity/community/nation of the region?
Mate banderites sloughtered my people. Thats the level of unity Russia can achive against itself.
I know Russia is capitalist. I also know that it isn’t at war with Kiev to plunder Ukraine.
You choose to belive so ignoring the material facts.
It’s annexing 7/8 at the moment, as pointed out, and you seem to ignore.
So it exports grain and oil, mines rare earths and coal for… anti-profits? At loss? It would claim to the contrary, so are you wrong or are Russian state media wrong?
Even if that were the stated objective (and not the strategic ambiguity that has been going on since 2014); Ukraine only became a threat after it was invaded, after a comically corrupt pro-Russian leader was ejected. And what has since the SMO achieved? Ukraine is more militarized and more in favour of NATO than ever before. 2 states bordering Russia joined NATO. NATO gained access to first hand experience against Russian army and a testing ground against it weapons and tactics. There’s also catastrophic losses, numbers of which you will dispute, but I encourage you read up ru mil-bloggers, and do read between the lines as is the eastern tradition. So it’s a complete failure, and even if it wasn’t… What would be the difference?
NATO’s power is high tech long range weapons, not mass tank armies that need Ukrainian steppes. And even if any one attempted there would be a nuclear response, so why would any one try that? This makes absolutely no sense, no matter how many times you repeat the line.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it was strategically located inside of Ukraine, wasn’t it? And than someone decided to occupy it, even tho in no way what so ever it could be a land bridge, which is your claimed rationale? How was it strategical against Russia?
You guys use the same examples over and over, and I had a few of these discussions already.
No one is questioning that. Only you ignore that is because Russia occupied that region with the exact same scenario as they used against Georgia before.
Weird, maybe I somehow misread your statement of
Because we both know you’re referring to a manufactured propaganda item used as casus belli, that could not be proved outside of Russian/aligned media. You could compare pictures of any Ukrainian front line city with these of Donbas and would be faced with a rather radical discrepancy.
I’m addressing it since that is a theory you initially claimed to subscribe to, check your own comments. And as stated; even if you would follow the Leninist reinterpretation there’s no point in me addressing it, since you then ignore the facts of Russia’s exploitative economy and the fact it is a capitalist state like any other with concentration of wealth not much different from USA. In fact oddly enough most “western” capitalist countries seem to have a more egalitarian wealth division than Russia.
Obviously not everyone, but the masses, yes - I’m not questioning that.
Yeah, I could kinda agree with that. Also it didn’t work out, obviously. But let’s make it funnier and fit Afghanistan into your lovely fairly-tale. That was clearly in favour of the local population? Or just to secure the crucial supply of poppy seed to the population of RSFSR as it became aware of the fact that the central planning brought the economy of a system spanning two continents and a European bread basket to a point where it could not feed it’s own population reliably?
See, the thing is; I’m very much not a fan of market economy, I see some positives of the communist regime in my country. But I also see it’s murderous failures and what seems to differentiate our positions is that I can remember the fall of Soviet Union and seen it in Moscow itself before the fall of the RSFSR and in my country before that. What you read about in glorifying brochures I’ve seen. It was a failure, and that any honest person who lived though it will tell you. It collapsed from day to day, and suddenly there’s no food. It was not a resilient system, it was not an effective system, the waste was astronomical and the lack of rationality made entire nations starve. It collapsed the economy and alienated the people beyond the conditions that brought it to be. In it’s ruined social hellscape it gave birth to a new kleptocratic oligarchic state that you for some deeply absurd reason seem to support, even tho there is clearly no interest with marxism-leninism on it’s part.
The only rational explanation for your support of this war would be if you’re a Russian nationalist. This I could understand. Detest, but consider it rational in it’s crooked way.
Half of your points is claiming things are the way you imagine them, because you do. I’m not going after every fallacy you believe in (like the tiny thing of ownership in Chinese economy). I’m just hoping you’ll actually question some of the stuff you try to push on to others that’s ostensibly false or misguided.
-Selling commodities is not imperialism. I said export of capital. Commodities can function as capital, but in selling them through export these are not exported as capital.
-The IMF wanted Ukraine to destroy its safety nets for loans, Ukraine’s ousted president went with the Russian loan that didn’t. It’s as simple as that.
-Russia is achieving its goals with respect to the SMO. Crimea was in Ukraine, but voted to join Russia.
-Ukraine has been at war with the Donbass region for a decade. This is fact.
-I’ve never said Russia was socialist, or a model to emulate. I’m aware of the wealth disparity.
-The USSR had stable food supply. It was a remarkably effective system, and capitalism has been devastating for it.
-I don’t support imperialism. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, and my opinions are in line with that.
All in all, none of your points are worth responding to in any greater depth than that. They’re all coated in doublespeak and anecdote.
The only definition of imperialism you accept contradicts every common dictionary definition and servers the one country where it was mostly developed. Ok, no point in discussing that further. Just one final question then.
Let’s theoretically accept “SMO” is to defend against NATO and only about the 4 oblasts and you claim “land bridge”. According to recent demands they are Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk, yes? So; why? Land bridge to what?
It’s 630 km from Moscow to Luhansk, 730 to Donetsk, 860 to Zaporizhzhia, 980 to Kherson.
It’s 500 km from Chernichiv oblast, 450 km from Sumy oblast to downtown Moscow. About half an hour of flight for a subsonic Tomahawk, few minutes for a hypersonic rocket. Russia occupied that area but retreated, mostly even before Ukrainian counter attacks. If you have a look at a map access to Russia proper is broadly open from the “pro-NATO regime” terrain. Moscow is also closer then the 4 oblasts from Latvia, and marginally more distant from Estonia and Finland, so 3 NATO states together some 8% of Russias border? There’s 8 Ukrainian oblasts Russia is not making any claims against closer to Moscow then Zaporizhzhia.
Why are only resource rich regions of east on southern Ukraine occupied and not the ones closest to key industrial and administrative region of Russia? And if you’re about to claim that there’s anything so important in the south - Turkey, the second biggest NATO army is 200km from Russian border to the south or less then the Moscow-Donbas distance if they wanted to hit most of Russian south over the sea. Is there some “materialist” reading of the map I’m not understanding?
No, the definition of imperialism as a system of international extraction is consistent and is the most widely used. The west is not the world.
Secondly, it’s not about absolute proximity, but the terrain and capability of moving troops and materiel through. You keep relying on metrics that don’t actually matter nearly as much, you did it earlier too when you thought socialism was a ratio thing.
Im not from the west, you yourself confirmed russia is engaged in extraction and is a capitalist country, and ML definition is not used outside of specialised discourse. You’re just going “well akshuly…”
Did you even look at a topo map before spewing this nonsense?
Doing a few hundred km detour to bypass the mighty peaks of 400 m over sea level while requireing many more river passages is something you think any one would consider? Why?
Historically every key invasion from the west (Polish, French, German) rolled pretty much straight on to Moscow. The only notable exception being the Crimean one, coming from the south and closer to the route you seem to be picturing. Unless NATO is quietly assembling a cavalry force in place of it’s 5th generation fighter and global reach drone force this might not be a serious concern for anyone since 15th century.
What?
No, the idea that imperialism is about extraction and not about vague “influence” is the dominant understanding in the global south, China, etc. It’s dominant because it has clear roots and causes, as well as mechanics. It’s an established process rather than a vibe.
Secondly, as I had already stated, the fact that Ukraine was increasingly belligerant and warming up to NATO was why the war kicked off. Location plays a part, as Russia isn’t going to go to war with, say, Israel despite Ukraine being similarly used by the US. I don’t know why you keep forgetting things we’ve already covered.
As for the ratio thing, you tried to show GDP ratios and whatnot even though I said what matters in determining if a system is capitalist or socialist is whichever is principle. You just kinda brushed that under the rug and made up your own definition to attack. You’ve done similar things to it many times here.
Edit: corrected imperialism comment.
Wonder why I’m having trouble understanding your point?
So Ukraine has no right to self determination if Russian influence might wane? And if location plays part, why are the bases on the border with Norway and Finland empty? Why is the south of Ukraine occupied and not the entire border? Why does that align with rousources maps? Why do you look at a historically imperialist country, with hundreds of years of subjecting other nations, and are surprised its neighbors might want to join a millitary aliance against it. Why are you acting like a russian nationalist ignoring the interest of any other etnicity/community/nation of the region? You said yourself its just another capitalist state by now.
Ah, you mean your claim that China is socialist despite its deep commitment to capitalist exploitation of its workforce and majority private control of it’s enterprise. But they state their socialism, so that’s ok? Im afraid to ask about your take on NSDAP, or did 3rd reich “export capital”? This may surprise you, but just because you state something does not make it reality. You can call exploitation of the working class socialism if you wish, does not make it so.
This is going in circles.
Ukraine is right on Russia’s doorstep, is still at active war with Donetsk and Luhansk, and was increasingly belligerant and building up troops in the Donbass while getting closer to NATO. Norway and Finland are not at active war and are not increasingly belligerant towards Russia beyond the usual condemnations. Self-determination, morals, etc are not the driving reasons for why this war is happening. Why not support the rights of Donetsk and Luhansk to self determination? Why are you acting like a Banderite ignoring the interest of any other etnicity/community/nation of the region?
I know Russia is capitalist. I also know that it isn’t at war with Kiev to plunder Ukraine.
As for China, I already explained, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned:
Markets are not capitalism, nor are markets incompatible with socialism. China is in the developing phases of socialism, they can’t just nationalize all industry overnight without serious problems arising:
I know you aren’t a Marxist, so I’m not sure why you’re so obsessed with misunderstanding socialism.
The Nazis were imperialist, and went to war specifically to try to create new colonies. This is well-documented.
Sorry, edited my reply before noticing this.
So is Finland.
Which were occupied by Russia, so you’re claiming they can not defend against a foreign invasion of their borders. If you did not notice Putin admitted it was Russian millitary taking them over initially.
So is Finland.
Pretty sure they are very openly arming themselves and Ukraine.
Unless its a defensive war which it is for Ukraine.
Because they are fake, as admitted by Putin, and as practiced before by the “peoples republics” in Georgia, that are now mostly abandoned and forced into merging with Russia proper, as the ukrainian once already were.
Mate banderites sloughtered my people. Thats the level of unity Russia can achive against itself.
You choose to belive so ignoring the material facts.