The correlation of combatant suicide is commonplace, but increased severely in periods of fascism and genocide. Most people aren’t sociopaths but can still be persuaded, pressured, and/or conditioned to do terrible things. I’m surprised it’s not higher.
And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings and can’t live with them. This is not something to celebrate, these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers. But these cowards can’t even bring themselves to try and right their wrongs.
They’re not victims. They’re monsters who finally learned who they are but refuse to repent.
Are you ready to throw your life away and turn against everything you’ve learned in your life? This isn’t like Vietnam where you could get away with dropping a live grenade in the tent of your commanding officer because you are in the jungle with the next town 5 miles away; they are literally at home and every move against your own will end with you being subjected to a traitors treatment.
I’m pretty sure a lot of them are conscripts, since there’s a mandatory military draft with a duration of 2+ years. Those are young, inexperienced minds that are thrown into a machinery that has had decades of experience in how to make you do things you don’t want to do.
So yeah, they are victims: victims of propaganda, victims of a military complex that knows how to break you. If you want to damn someone do it with those that keep on killing innocents, not those who kill themselves so they don’t have to do more killing.
Are you ready to throw your life away and turn against everything you’ve learned in your life?
I’m not a monstrous piece of shit so I’ll never find myself in this kind of situation. There is not a single moment in my life where I have supported the military actions of the US despite living in the Imperial core, and it’s not like my parents were anti-war hippies or something.
Victims of propaganda
The only victims of their propaganda that I care about are the innocent people they’ve slaughtered.
I don’t think you realize that you are blessed that you didn’t grow up in Israel. Refusing to serve because of your conscience gets you an exemption in 10% of cases there. The 90% who didn’t want to serve but had no other choice are not monsters, they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Even those who got lucky and didn’t have to serve lose most of their job chances and are branded as undemocratic and traitors - even the “leftwing”-Israelis look down on the “refuseniks”. If you flee your country to dodge the draft, you can never come back, leaving behind everyone who you hold dear.
You can call what most of them DO monstrous (and i agree fully), but they are still human beings. And to feel such remorse that you take your own life is very human - more than any of those who continue to kill can ever be.
Aaron Bushnell didn’t just kill himself. He transformed his death into a protest. He didn’t just go quietly in the comfort of his own home. He picked one of the worst ways to go, in public, and made it known without a shadow of a doubt what he died for.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers, but he did at least do something positive with his suicide… unlike IDF soldiers. How many IDF soldiers have made their suicides a protest? Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves, it’s because killing Palestinians is “icky” and they can’t deal with it, not because they consider Palestinians worthy of being mourned.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers. Instead, he decided to be flashy.
Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves,
Are you normally this much of an expert on suicides committed by people half-way around the world? Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
The suicide rates among IDF personal is - perhaps - a positive indicator of the pressure Israeli society is under. That is all it is - figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers.
Could he have? I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but my understanding is that these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel. But even if he could have done more…at least he did something. At least he tried. These IDF soldiers are doing absolutely nothing. They’re not even trying.
Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
Okay but Pissrael is a first-world country that claims to hold liberal views. So even if I made such a projection of first-world, liberal values onto my analysis of IDF soldiers… I haven’t actually lost anything in the projection, because they are first-world liberals.
figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s grave as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel.
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism - but I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
But even if he could have done more…at least he did something.
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right? That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
Since you and most people commenting here are such experts on why military vets off themselves it should be easy for you to say, right?
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s
I’m not the one using Bushnell’s death as a cheap propaganda prop - and no, I don’t give a flying fuck if it was his intention to be used as such.
as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
Yeah I might have been speaking a little too strong because I’ve seen you posting around here and I know you’re no fan of the IDF. I’m not saying you have a pattern of defending the IDF, but I think you’re doing so in this case by mistake.
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism.
Fair point. If he still had access to critical US intel, then leaking it would have been more productive.
I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
Why on earth would the average person (including anarchists) understand how the intelligence business works? If you have any resources on that, I’d love to read them, because this would be very niche information that would be nice for the community to have.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
No I cannot stress enough that suicide is not the only way to atone for what veterans have done, or even a good way without extra information (i.e. making it a protest, taking soldiers with you, etc.). If I knew Aaron Bushnell, I would have selfishly told him to stay around and organize protests and direct actions, and see if he could use his cybersecurity expertise to secure anarchist communications and sabotage imperialist systems. I cannot stress enough that I do not believe that Aaron Bushnell’s suicide was “ideal”, and I selfishly would have loved to see him do more. But at least he tried, even the teeniest tiniest amount, in an imperfect and brash way, to fix what he broke. The people we’re talking about aren’t even trying to fix what they’ve broken; they’re just trying to escape it.
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right?
Correct. He was just another baby killer until he took action to fix what he broke. However, as I mentioned, he could have done lots of other stuff that didn’t require him to set himself on fire.
That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
Again I want to see veterans do actual productive activism, but if (and only if) they refuse to do that then I’ll happily watch their suicides 🍿
There will be a non-zero amount of soldiers who didn’t choose this - Israel has a mandatory military draft of 2 years for men and women, with some roles having to serve additional time. Once you are drafted, you will be pressured into things, and with “Shooting and Crying” you’ve shown a propaganda tool used to prime the civilian population for exactly this - following orders even when your conscience says it’s wrong to do so.
So yeah, i stand by my statement that IDF Soldiers who kill themselves because they can’t live with what they’ve witnessed are victims of the same machinery that kills children in the strip.
People who get non-combat jobs are unlikely to kill themselves over their service.
following orders even when your conscience says it’s wrong to do so.
Not an excuse.
So yeah, i stand by my statement that IDF Soldiers who kill themselves because they can’t live with what they’ve witnessed are victims of the same machinery that kills children in the strip.
Oh my God no, choosing to take your own life out of guilt from the actions of the army you served in is not morally equivalent to a child being obliterated by said army. Please I’m trying to be patient here
It’s not an excuse, it’s what is expected of them, and what is drilled into their brains through multiple channels while growing up, cranked up to 11 the moment the military gets their hands on them - and they get the majority of the population in their hands. Refusing to serve on conscientious grounds has only a 10% chance of being exempted. So yeah, the chance that those who kill themselves didn’t want to serve is pretty high.
Even those who refuse and are lucky to get an exemption pay a heavy price, with their job prospects shot to hell and their standing in society reduced to traitor. Not even the left wing in Israel supports them.
Israel’s military, state and how they are interwoven is not comparable to anything else i have ever heard of in my life. In most of the world you can either not enlist or it has no real repercussions on your civilian life if you refuse to serve (in my country you are not allowed to get a gun license for - i think it’s 25 years? - if you refuse to serve and have to do a 3 months longer civil service instead)
Even those who refuse and are lucky to get an exemption pay a heavy price, with their job prospects shot to hell and their standing in society reduced to traitor. Not even the left wing in Israel supports them.
Unironically yes, taking the L and tanking the consequences is the only moral thing to do in that situation holy shit. If it’s serve in the IDF or {insert consequence here}, you take {insert consequence here}. It’s literally that simple 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦
They can try to refuse; Wikipedia says that 9,5% of the people who refuse on conscientious grounds are allowed to. Not serving will also wreck your chance to a normal life; Most jobs want only people who have served and completed their compulsory military service, and you are branded as a “refusenik”. Dodging the draft will get you a travel ban; you can’t even leave the country. So if your parents don’t do the smart thing and send you off before the draft, you are fucked; and if you leave, you can’t come back if you dont want to serve. Those are pretty shitty options if you just want to live your life in peace. It’s not NK, but it’s not comparable to any military in the west.
The correlation of combatant suicide is commonplace, but increased severely in periods of fascism and genocide. Most people aren’t sociopaths but can still be persuaded, pressured, and/or conditioned to do terrible things. I’m surprised it’s not higher.
And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings and can’t live with them. This is not something to celebrate, these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers. But these cowards can’t even bring themselves to try and right their wrongs.
They’re not victims. They’re monsters who finally learned who they are but refuse to repent.
Are you ready to throw your life away and turn against everything you’ve learned in your life? This isn’t like Vietnam where you could get away with dropping a live grenade in the tent of your commanding officer because you are in the jungle with the next town 5 miles away; they are literally at home and every move against your own will end with you being subjected to a traitors treatment.
I’m pretty sure a lot of them are conscripts, since there’s a mandatory military draft with a duration of 2+ years. Those are young, inexperienced minds that are thrown into a machinery that has had decades of experience in how to make you do things you don’t want to do.
So yeah, they are victims: victims of propaganda, victims of a military complex that knows how to break you. If you want to damn someone do it with those that keep on killing innocents, not those who kill themselves so they don’t have to do more killing.
I’m not a monstrous piece of shit so I’ll never find myself in this kind of situation. There is not a single moment in my life where I have supported the military actions of the US despite living in the Imperial core, and it’s not like my parents were anti-war hippies or something.
The only victims of their propaganda that I care about are the innocent people they’ve slaughtered.
I don’t think you realize that you are blessed that you didn’t grow up in Israel. Refusing to serve because of your conscience gets you an exemption in 10% of cases there. The 90% who didn’t want to serve but had no other choice are not monsters, they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Even those who got lucky and didn’t have to serve lose most of their job chances and are branded as undemocratic and traitors - even the “leftwing”-Israelis look down on the “refuseniks”. If you flee your country to dodge the draft, you can never come back, leaving behind everyone who you hold dear.
You can call what most of them DO monstrous (and i agree fully), but they are still human beings. And to feel such remorse that you take your own life is very human - more than any of those who continue to kill can ever be.
Sooo… like that thing Aaron Bushnell didn’t do?
Aaron Bushnell didn’t just kill himself. He transformed his death into a protest. He didn’t just go quietly in the comfort of his own home. He picked one of the worst ways to go, in public, and made it known without a shadow of a doubt what he died for.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers, but he did at least do something positive with his suicide… unlike IDF soldiers. How many IDF soldiers have made their suicides a protest? Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves, it’s because killing Palestinians is “icky” and they can’t deal with it, not because they consider Palestinians worthy of being mourned.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers. Instead, he decided to be flashy.
Are you normally this much of an expert on suicides committed by people half-way around the world? Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
The suicide rates among IDF personal is - perhaps - a positive indicator of the pressure Israeli society is under. That is all it is - figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Could he have? I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but my understanding is that these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel. But even if he could have done more…at least he did something. At least he tried. These IDF soldiers are doing absolutely nothing. They’re not even trying.
Okay but Pissrael is a first-world country that claims to hold liberal views. So even if I made such a projection of first-world, liberal values onto my analysis of IDF soldiers… I haven’t actually lost anything in the projection, because they are first-world liberals.
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s grave as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism - but I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right? That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
Since you and most people commenting here are such experts on why military vets off themselves it should be easy for you to say, right?
I’m not the one using Bushnell’s death as a cheap propaganda prop - and no, I don’t give a flying fuck if it was his intention to be used as such.
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
Yeah I might have been speaking a little too strong because I’ve seen you posting around here and I know you’re no fan of the IDF. I’m not saying you have a pattern of defending the IDF, but I think you’re doing so in this case by mistake.
Fair point. If he still had access to critical US intel, then leaking it would have been more productive.
Why on earth would the average person (including anarchists) understand how the intelligence business works? If you have any resources on that, I’d love to read them, because this would be very niche information that would be nice for the community to have.
No I cannot stress enough that suicide is not the only way to atone for what veterans have done, or even a good way without extra information (i.e. making it a protest, taking soldiers with you, etc.). If I knew Aaron Bushnell, I would have selfishly told him to stay around and organize protests and direct actions, and see if he could use his cybersecurity expertise to secure anarchist communications and sabotage imperialist systems. I cannot stress enough that I do not believe that Aaron Bushnell’s suicide was “ideal”, and I selfishly would have loved to see him do more. But at least he tried, even the teeniest tiniest amount, in an imperfect and brash way, to fix what he broke. The people we’re talking about aren’t even trying to fix what they’ve broken; they’re just trying to escape it.
Correct. He was just another baby killer until he took action to fix what he broke. However, as I mentioned, he could have done lots of other stuff that didn’t require him to set himself on fire.
Again I want to see veterans do actual productive activism, but if (and only if) they refuse to do that then I’ll happily watch their suicides 🍿
Not necessarily.
Aw hell the fuck no! IDF soldiers are not fucking victims of their own actions. For fuck’s sake please tell me I misread that 🤮
There will be a non-zero amount of soldiers who didn’t choose this - Israel has a mandatory military draft of 2 years for men and women, with some roles having to serve additional time. Once you are drafted, you will be pressured into things, and with “Shooting and Crying” you’ve shown a propaganda tool used to prime the civilian population for exactly this - following orders even when your conscience says it’s wrong to do so.
So yeah, i stand by my statement that IDF Soldiers who kill themselves because they can’t live with what they’ve witnessed are victims of the same machinery that kills children in the strip.
People who get non-combat jobs are unlikely to kill themselves over their service.
Not an excuse.
Oh my God no, choosing to take your own life out of guilt from the actions of the army you served in is not morally equivalent to a child being obliterated by said army. Please I’m trying to be patient here
It’s not an excuse, it’s what is expected of them, and what is drilled into their brains through multiple channels while growing up, cranked up to 11 the moment the military gets their hands on them - and they get the majority of the population in their hands. Refusing to serve on conscientious grounds has only a 10% chance of being exempted. So yeah, the chance that those who kill themselves didn’t want to serve is pretty high.
Even those who refuse and are lucky to get an exemption pay a heavy price, with their job prospects shot to hell and their standing in society reduced to traitor. Not even the left wing in Israel supports them.
Israel’s military, state and how they are interwoven is not comparable to anything else i have ever heard of in my life. In most of the world you can either not enlist or it has no real repercussions on your civilian life if you refuse to serve (in my country you are not allowed to get a gun license for - i think it’s 25 years? - if you refuse to serve and have to do a 3 months longer civil service instead)
Unironically yes, taking the L and tanking the consequences is the only moral thing to do in that situation holy shit. If it’s serve in the IDF or {insert consequence here}, you take {insert consequence here}. It’s literally that simple 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦
This is not NK, those IDF soldiers can refuse.
Apparently spending some time in gaol is less preferable to committing genocide to them.
They can try to refuse; Wikipedia says that 9,5% of the people who refuse on conscientious grounds are allowed to. Not serving will also wreck your chance to a normal life; Most jobs want only people who have served and completed their compulsory military service, and you are branded as a “refusenik”. Dodging the draft will get you a travel ban; you can’t even leave the country. So if your parents don’t do the smart thing and send you off before the draft, you are fucked; and if you leave, you can’t come back if you dont want to serve. Those are pretty shitty options if you just want to live your life in peace. It’s not NK, but it’s not comparable to any military in the west.
Oh no not missed job opportunities, those poor victims.
Israel is the real victim of the genocide of the Palestinian people!
Nice that you ignore the 90% that dont get the chance to refuse.
Everyone of them gets a fucking change to refuse.
It’s actually quite easy when the conditioning starts at birth… the way it does in Israel.