Agreed.
This is why I hate the calls for civility.
So much of the change being demanded in our political system lowers people’s inalienable rights to liberty and basic happiness, and I can’t be civil about that.
I remember seeing one of those “civility” types who was really sanctimonious about it suddenly start posting about how trans people must be stopped, because they’re anathema to their religion and against their (Christian, white) values. So much for the civility, eh? Funny how it just takes one moment for the mask to come off; they want civility only for their views, not everyone’s.
A lot of anti-trans people struggle to define “woman”. Honestly, it seems like most of them struggle with anything beyond “boys have a penis, girls have a vagina” level of understanding.
And yet so many of those same people have expert-level understandings of the various nuances of terminology used to define the rape and sexual assault of minors. They even have a well-defined litmus test to determine which forms are acceptable versus which ones are unacceptable.
Terribly weird, if you ask me, which you probably aren’t but I’m saying it anyway.
Conservative’s level of understanding gender and sexuality starts and stops with a campus preacher hitting two male ends of extension cords together and going “see, see, it doesn’t work!”
Pulls out the laminated card with the Romeo and Juliette law printed on it “UM ACKSHUALLY”
When that happened in a Transformers movie I laughed out loud.
She says he liked the barely legal type, and then she said like 15. There’s a literal number associated with the law. 15 isn’t it.
Hey, maybe he’s just from Iceland.
It’s 15 here in Sweden as well.
There’s a colloquial term I’ve seen used to describe the age of consent here. “Myndig” essentially means “of age,” so e.g. “straffmyndig” combines “punishment” and “of age” to indicate that someone can be tried as an adult.
The colloquial term for age of consent is “byxmyndig” which roughly translates as “of trouser age” and it makes my skin crawl off every time I see it. It pops up every so often, like a perverted jack in the box.
It’s easier than saying åldern för sexuellt självbestämmande I guess… but yeah, normal people don’t usually talk about it anyways.
Sexuell myndighetsålder sounds just fine though. Byxmyndig just makes me gag, I don’t think you can even properly convey how gross it sounds in English, because “of trouser age” sounds a lot more benign to my ears.
Throw in snake and I think it reaches a creepy enough level in English.
Perv-view?
I found myself unconsciously drifting away from people who are mentally stuck behind the definition of words. I didn’t realize what I was doing or why I was feeling safety in isolating myself for the longest time.
People who are so heavily invested in the definitions of words rarely have good intentions.
It never really made much sense to me. Words are all made up and are in constant change from one time period to the next. Each generation has their own words and what it means to them.
I think subconsciously I realized that people obessed with defining words were attempting to assert power or dominance over me or my interests. That’s why I pushed back in my own way. By living a life that can’t be defined and cutting those weirdos out of my life.
After a weirdo dies, what did all that time spent fighting about the definition of a word archive? Maybe we can ask Charlie.
Overall I agree, except that words and their definitions are all that our legal system really has to operate on. If I’m ever in legal trouble, you better believe I want someone defending me who takes words and their meaning deadly seriously. Cause laws, transcripts, testimony, the constitution, all of it top to bottom is just words and definitions that has massive power over our lives. So I can’t just say “labels and terms don’t matter to me” because, like it or not, words are the metaprogramming language of every government, scientific, educational and legal body on earth. And if you don’t care about them, but your opponents do, you just walked off a critical battlefield and gave up huge ground without a fight.
Words are the basis for all communication if you cannot communicate clearly what you want from me don’t talk to me.
I think people who don’t care about the definition of words to a group are lazy, selfish, and ussually trying to manipulate me by slapping me around with double speak.
It’s not about not caring about the definition of words. It’s about not doing that at the expense of caring about meaning.
Yes exactly. It’s nothing to do with the definition. It’s about how people try to re-define words to mean other shit. Not that we shouldn’t care about the definition of the word. If someone is trying to define something so we can all communicate on a level playing field with words we all understand then good. Otherwise it’s a bad faith argument. People need to be able to come to a common understanding together in a conversation.
Oh yeah, 100%
I see what you’re saying. There’s a huge difference between snidely asking “What is a woman?” so you can sit there and pick apart every definition they try to give, versus saying “When you use the term ‘woman’ here, what do you mean by it?” so you can understand their definition and move forward.
I might be proving your point by disagreeing with you (well, not really but maybe clarifying). But, here it goes anyway.
I think what you’re trying to describe is just reactionary ideology. What you’ve noticed in reactionary conservative thought is specifically the attempt to restrict vocabulary. There is no room for them to allow language to evolve as society evolves and progresses. It’s a tool used to attempt to restrict thought into a “common sense” appeal.
For the case of a “women” it is appealing to a prior state of history in which nonbinary and trans people were forced to hide their outward expression and conform to society. Often times out of fear of individual or even state violence.
As that has changed the reactionary attempts to appeal to definitions of the past. To appeal to a group of people that grew up as children learning “girls have a vulva and boys have a penis”.
Which is a definition as simple as “a^2 + b^2 = c^2”. It’s a true definition for right angled triangles. The reactionary mathematician wants to live in a world in which there are only right angled triangles. So their “obsession with definitions” is nothing more than a restriction on what defines “a triangle”.
It is a suppression of language and defintions more than is anything else. It appeals strongly to those that are afraid of the world that they don’t understand and are looking for a scapegoat to direct their fear and blame onto.
Some people just like clear communication and don’t find that idea stupid, weird, evil, or controlling. I actually would say that opposing clear communication so hard comes from a need to manipulate people and conversations to be whatever you want them to be. I get that words are slippery, they definitely are, but you shouldn’t misuse them and then run scared if someone calls you on it.
Okay, but the context of this meme is people making arguments that “children” shouldn’t be protected from pedophiles because they are potentially biologically “capable” of bearing young.
Every adult person on some basic level does know the difference between biological capability, age and status as an adult.
To obfuscate that in a search for “clarity” only allows wrongdoers to work their way out of bad situations.
Of course there may be some fringe circumstance that is so fucked, confusing and bizarre that it may in fact need some kind of understanding deeper than a basic moral or legal understanding. However rich, powerful, informed, adults intentionally engaging with minors in sexual, intimate and private ways is not one of them.
I understand you yourself are not attempting to protect pedophiles, but please understand that you need to specifically make that clear before you make such a comment or argument. That discourse is valid, but needs to be properly contextualized.
The user I responded to changed the subject in my mind. Neither of us referenced the original post other than we talked about definitions. The original post is so obviously a bad faith argument coming from the Nazi that it would’ve never occurred to me anyone needs to point it out. This isn’t Twitter where 70% of users are nazis.
It’s still possible to communicate clearly and not get dragged down with getting lost in the excess of words from so many niche or specific topics of human interests.
Personally I choose to speak using words that are more common, simpler and broader. The purpose of that for me is to be understood by as many people as possible. To be understood by people of many ages or English skill level. This generally involves me using more words to describe what it is that I want to say or express without the need to condense meaning into words I have trouble defining because it’s outside of my personal interests.
Since I want to be understood by so many people, it means that many more people can hold me up to my word. That I can be called out by anyone, young or old, English as a first language or not and so on.
When I’m around people who talk like a dictionary, using all these words that seem definable but leaves me confused and trying to fill in the blanks in a conversation, I’m left with questions. Can they define all those words? But more importantly, who are they trying to talk to? Me? Or their preferred group of like-minded people?
There was a time before written language where language was continued through culture, tradition, story and possibly many other ways. This current experience isn’t the one and only way to experience life.
The ones who spend a large amount of personal energy fighting to define words will have spent a large amount of their limited time alive fighting to define words. They could have tried building community, or creating art or maybe just existing in the moment and being happy with the beauty that surrounds them. And then they, just like us, will all die. Life will continue on and the definition of words will continue to flow, change, evolve or die like so much of human culture and activity.
I’d need an example to get what you mean. Because part of me thinks you’re describing something I relate to, another part of me thinks you are talking about doing that incredibly annoying thing where you consistently use a word incorrectly and when it’s pointed out you seemed to be saying something very different from what you meant, you blame the other party and get annoyed. I know people who do this, and it’s quite annoying because I’m actually spending effort trying to translate instead of instantly understanding, had they spoken with more consideration for their audience.
I think my personal usage of the word ‘queer’ might be a good example to help describe what I mean.
I personally have a strong dislike for labels. Often people label me as a quick way to describe a list of traits they think I am. Often I do not neatly fit that list of traits which ends up with the other person upset that I am not neatly categorized and predictable.
However, as much as I hate labels, I still need to find community in this modern world. Talking with my therapist, we both agreed that ‘queer’ is probably the best compromise. It’s nothing too specific and it’s broad enough to be overall inclusive. I did not want to meet a specific group. Not gay, not bi, not poly, not trans, or any specific group. I wanted to meet all of these people in a general, inclusive space. In my area, the word queer happens to attract that diverse crowd I want to surrounded by.
I’ve been around by the type of people misinterpret my words my whole life. That’s why I choose to speak and type in the way that I do. I’m attempting to remove ambiguity. By removing thier tool of defining words as a weapon, it reveals that they can’t really defend themselves or their awful hidden views.
Why do you assume that most people are using words as weapons? I was honestly relating to what you wrote until the last paragraph. Especially about “awful hidden views”. In my experience the worst possible way to communicate is to take a tiny statement that does indicate anything bad in particular and assume it actually does. This is why all the infighting on the left happens imo. “They only said/think that because [leap to horrible thing that no one said]”
I’m curious though, who is questioning your use of queer? That sounds exactly like the modern definition of the word to me. Not sure I’ve noticed anyone disputing that.
Am I assuming most people are using words as a weapon?
Did I say people were questioning my use of the word queer?
I’m discussing a common manipulation tactic that’s often performed which is happening in this meme. Something often used to derail an argument by forcing people to waste time talking about the definition of words rather than continuing a conversation about concepts as a whole.
Manipulator’s to me are like magicians, they hate when people talk about the tools of their trade. And I love talking about the tools of a manipulators trade. This just so happened to be a meme about a manipulators tool.
I asked for an example of people getting annoyed about you using a word wrong and that’s what you gave. This conversation has been confusing, but I don’t think we actually disagree after all.
You’re only thinking of the manipulators and those who
relishenjoy control over others.You imply that the time could have been better spent in service of art or the community.
I ask you then, have you thought of the clerks? The assistants? Art? What of the writers?
Language can be used to control or manipulate yes. But before those purposes came, came the need for it to first exist, as a tool to forge connection.
To describe the sunset, give voice to the grief, and exclaim the joyous cry.
Oh yeah? Define definition of a word!
It depends on what the meaning of the word “is” is.
I believe it’s about being which brings us to the question about being or not being
Something to do with oral sex 🤷🏻
D:
I think subconsciously I realized that people obessed with defining words were attempting to assert power or dominance over me or my interests.
It is. Language is powerful, and you can’t bow out, because you only ever have to win with a casual on looker to have tremendous impact on a small group. Heck, this even works for larger groups.
Wording is a big part of that.
Hi! I am your opposite. I hate when people mangle meaning of words with no reason altogether. Create new ones all you want, I am all behind it. But leave the old ones be and use them correctly.
Constant meddling, changing and pushing around of words makes them useless in communication and, in case of words having a weight attached to them, makes them hollow. It’s one thing to use custom meaning in your circle, another altogether to try to force it upon the world - in a way, becoming what you hate, someone forcing their definition.
For example, overuse of the word “Nazi” pretty much made it worthless. Today if people get called nazi…nobody cares. Word got overused, it’s meaning thinned.
What I hate about MAGA tho is that we create new words for new phenomena like transsexual and they behave as if it wasn’t valid. It’s not words they protect - they protect their worldview and frame it as defending language.
Gonna dig my grave but I do consider female and transfemale different. But especially if they had surgery they are both women. We never specified women fully, did we? Traditionally it’s just a person with tits and vagina. And I hate mental gymnastics MAGA go to to try and exclude people who literally went through invasive medical procedure to fit into what their brain deemed always natural. This is defending meaning of words vs. defending your worldview and framing it as defending words.
Also I may be autistic cuz I cling to rules too much xD
Disagree that Nazi lost meaning. It is very accurate when describing today’s “conservative” Americans. The term “conservative” isn’t even remotely as accurate as Nazi is.
I hate when people mangle meaning of words with no reason altogether.
You’re speaking a language made of words that have been mangled and mutated with no rhyme or reason, with significantly less logic behind it than other languages.
For example, overuse of the word “Nazi” pretty much made it worthless.
Or does it just mean that Nazis are everywhere, and it’s more important than ever to call it out?
Most Nazis were not Hermann Göring, they were surprisingly normal people who enabled atrocities to happen. That’s the part people need to recognize.
Or does it just mean that Nazis are everywhere, and it’s more important than ever to call it out? Let’s not fool ourselves, at this point people on the left hurl “Nazi” as a common insult. No weight behind the word whatsoever, due to overuse.
You’re speaking a language made of words that have been mangled and mutated with no rhyme or reason, with significantly less logic behind it than other languages.
Yeah, but we are, at least should be, better than our ancestors at making it sensible. We can expand vocab for new words, we don’t need to destroy the meaning behind already existing ones.
Some people want to be inclusive in their language and define woman by gender, and that’s great! Some people like the historical sex-based definition, and that’s fine too. Biological sex is real, and wanting to acknowledge that doesn’t make someone right-wing.
No but it makes you a clown that’s really really really proud of their junior school biology knowledge. Yes, we all know biological sex is real, you’re not a fucking genius with hidden knowledge. So if you feel the need to constantly bring it up, it’s most likely in bad faith and to display your absolute ignorance of anything that requires more than 5th grade reading comprehension.
Sex =/= gender. Psychology and sociology and cultures that make arbitrary bullshit rules are not some “woke librul” plot to turn the frogs gay. The world is bigger than your white christian home town with a population of 200. You are not the “standard” or the “norm”, you’re just ignorant of the fact that other people who do things differently exist.
The same people that feel the need to go around lecturing other grown fucking adults about what they learnt in biology class when they were 8 years old, are the same people that are adamant that blue is for boys and pink is for girls and that everyone must wear a particular shape of clothing based on their genitals. That’s not biology, that’s fucking culture.
The funniest thing about all of this. Is that the people who want to mansplain basic biology to everyone are the most obsessed with gender by a long fucking shot. And the biggest fucking babies and nazis about it. Assigning themselves cute little labels like “alpha” and following clown fucking rules that make a ‘man’, all for the sake of their gender affirming care.
Then they have the god damn fucking nerve to go around lecturing people because they’re too fucking stupid to be any level of self aware, and they’re damn proud of that too.
Agree 100% sex =/= gender and blue/pink are culture, etc. What about where it matters, like sports? If women want sex-specific leagues, should we support them? Do you support the young women that don’t want to play against biologically male players such as AB Hernandez?
Hormone replacement therapy actually changes a lot more than breast size, including muscle mass and bone density.
But let’s be real here. You’re the kind of person that would also complain about a trans person in a chess or COD tournament. And who would accuse cis women of being men because they don’t look woman enough to you.
The funny thing about this conversation is that I wasn’t born yesterday. And what I’ve noticed is that the people who are most concerned about it, are anti-feminist men that hero worship pedos and probably have rape charges in their past, Harry Potter fans that never gave a shit about feminism before, and women like Riley Gaines that came in 5th place and blamed everything on a trans woman that was in the same race.
Not that it’s even as widespread as you seem to think it is. You’re just obsessed with trans people.
It seems you’d really like me to be somebody else, that you can rail against for other opinions. It feels good when you can properly hate someone with moral conviction.
But it’s not that easy. HRT is great for people that need it, but it can’t erase the effects of male puberty. In the case of AB Hernandez, do you think the women have a right to not play against biological males?
can’t erase the effects of male puberty
You say that and then jump straight to an example of a teenager in high school. Clown. This is why trans kids are given puberty blockers in more enlightened places. So that their teenage puberty doesn’t take hold before they’re old enough for bigger steps. But you probably want to end that too.
It seems you’d really like me to be somebody else, that you can rail against for other opinions. It feels good when you can properly hate someone with moral conviction.
I’m thinking that you’re exactly what I think you are.
I’m confused why you apparently doubt that puberty affects teenagers in high school, but that’s not really relevant in the end.
I mention AB Hernandez because it’s in the news, and the women involved are emphatically expressing that they don’t want to play against biological males. Pick another situation if you want, like Julie Peterson refusing to take the podium in protest after taking second place to someone that has the advantage of male puberty.
The general point is what I’m asking about. Do you agree that women have the right to not compete against biological males, when they’re saying very strongly that they do not want to?
I’m confused why you apparently doubt that puberty affects teenagers in high school
Can you read? If you could, you’d probably be less confused.
With Trump giving a blowjob to a man we’re back to “define woman”
Its why Im always disappointed to see anyone who isnt a maga doing mental gymnastics to pretend they were hoodwinked as opposed to simply being ok with tremendous levels of sacrifice if it means hurting marginalized people.
Their arguments are never honest. They know what they actually want, and are for the most part getting it.
I hate the accuracy of this more than I ever thought possible
