I ask this because I think of the recent switch of Ubuntu to the Rust recode of the GNU core utils, which use an MIT license. There are many Rust recodes of GPL software that re-license it as a pushover MIT or Apache licenses. I worry these relicensing efforts this will significantly harm the FOSS ecosystem. Is this reason to start worrying or is it not that bad?
IMO, if the FOSS world makes something public, with extensive liberties, then the only thing that should be asked in return is that people preserve these liberties, like the GPL successfully enforces. These pushover licenses preserve nothing.
It is concerning, yeah. I usually license my own software with MIT, but, not all of it, and I think GPL is very important for Linux.
GPL is the only thing standing between us and Embrace-Extend-Extinguish.
There’s a reason that “Stallman was right” is a meme in the FOSS world.
Do you think IBM wouldn’t make Red Hat completely proprietary if they had the chance? They already tried to use their customer licensing to restrict source access!
It only takes one successful proprietary product to gain mind-share and market-share and become a new de-facto standard, and then all of the original FOSS has to play catch-up and stay compatible to stay relevant.
See Jabber/XMPP for an example.
See Jabber/XMPP for an example.
There was a (short) time when I could chat with my friends on google hangouts (or whatever that was called back then) and facebook messaging via my own xmpp server. It was pretty cool and somehow felt like that’s the way things should be. Like email today (even if every big player is trying to destroy that too).
Maybe in some version of the future we’ll get that back.
You’re on the fediverse where that is a possibility.
It’s not really a same thing. I can’t reach my mother or neighbor over fediverse since they don’t know nor care what that is. But they use whatsapp, facebook and other stuff which are in their own walled gardens and there’s no option to communicate to those gardens with anything I self host.
And trying to convince everyone to switch is not a battle I’m actively fighting for multiple reasons. Of course I mention signal, fediverse and everything to anyone who’s willing to listen, but those encounters are pretty rare.
The problem you are describing in this comment is a social problem, not a technological one. In the previous comment I answered, a technological problem was described, and I offered a technological solution.
I am on the fedi, I do not proselytize to anybody that’s not on the fedi, nor do I interact outside of it. I am not fighting a battle, nor do I need to change people. There’s tons of people on the fedi that I can interact with. If people like where they are, they can continue to enjoy that, and I don’t have to bother them. I call my parents using the phone.
It’s kinda-sorta social problem, but originally not the way you intend. It used to be possible to self host XMPP and chat with people regardless of the platform since both Google and Facebook (it wasn’t Meta at the time) adopted the protocol. But then they changed their policy and created the walled gardens they have now and thus it’s a social and/or political problem.
They fully followed the playbook of Embrace-Extend-Extinguish which eleijeep@piefed.social mentioned few messages up the thread and pretty much devastated XMPP out of existence. Sure, there’s still handful of users and project itself isn’t dead, but before their policy change I saw quite a lot of servers around which are now either dead or forgotten.
On a previous comment I didn’t mean to describe that as a technological problem but a problem related to big corporations embracing FOSS projects/protocols and killing them by introducing their own walled garden variant of it.
https://matrix.org/category/dma/
There is work in progress to address this compelled by EU legislation.
Do you think IBM wouldn’t make Red Hat completely proprietary if they had the chance?
Adding to this, Google would make Android fully proprietary in a heartbeat if they could, given they’re already closing down more and more portions of the AOSP and trying to lock down app development and distribution as well.
And conceivably all it would take to turn Android fully proprietary ala Windows, is to hard-fork AOSP to keep the Lineage/Graphene/etc. users happy, and then rewrite main Android as closed-source.
Although, it’s kinda ironic that Windows, a fully closed environment, is less restrictive in terms of app dev and distribution, than Android, a supposedly semi-open environment, is. Like, MS isn’t mandating signed exes or trying to fully lock Windows into the MS Store, yet, while Google is trying to mandate signed APKs and also trying to lock Android into the Play Store.
And before anyone says, ‘But SmartScreen,’ unless that option is specifically disabled, you can just run unsigned exes by clicking ‘Run anyway’ still, Android doesn’t have a ‘Run anyway’ equivalent option AFAIK.
Although, it’s kinda ironic that Windows, a fully closed environment, is less restrictive in terms of app dev and distribution, […]
I think the reason for this is mainly historic.
Like, MS isn’t mandating signed exes or trying to fully lock Windows into the MS Store
I’m pretty sure this is changing too. Like the start menu deprioritizing the application menus vs the “app list”
See Google Chrome too.
Given the current world we live in I do not want anything that I create or contribute to itself contributed to an exploitative corporation’s bottom line (at best) without my consent or their assuredly begrudging reciprocation. This should not be controversial. The GPL accomplishes this. Nothing more lax or permissive does or will. You are not a cool or chill guy because you don’t care what someone does with the code you write. You are handing all of those who would sack you the keys to the castle, ushering them inside. That is not abstaining, it’s letting your opponents win. No thanks.
without my consent or their assuredly begrudging reciprocation. This should not be controversial. The GPL accomplishes this
In legal theory. In corporate practice, MIT and similar “pushover” licensed software, especially FOSS libraries, is more readily adopted by corporate users - and through this adoption it is exercised, tested, bug reported - sometimes the corporate trolls even crawl out from under their rocks and publish bug fixes and extensions for it. By comparison, GPL stuff is radioactive, therefore less used.
Then we can talk about how successful you are likely to be in enforcing GPT on any large entity, particularly those in foreign countries.
If it’s radioactive, that’s because of a fundamental assumptive imbalance in the contract between the author, the community, the users, the stakeholders, and the parasitic lawyers and their overlords.
If they don’t like it, pay/license and/or contribute.
In the corporate world, they have a lot to lose. So, they have lawyers - expensive lawyers - who, in theory, protect them from expensive lawsuits. One of the easiest ways to stay out of lawsuits over GPL and friends is to not use GPL software, so… that’s why it’s radioactive. Just having the parasitic lawyers review possible exposure is hellishly expensive, better to re-develop in-house than pay lawyers or even begin to think about the implications of entering into an agreement with a bunch of radical FOSS types.
It sucks, but it’s also how it is. Some corporations (like Intel) do heavily support and contribute to FOSS, when they feel like it.
Yeah this happens when the wrong kind of professional reviews exposure, which happens a lot.
Lawyers reviewing the licence terms will absolutely flag stuff that’s realistically a non-issue.
People that do threat risk assessment, (insurance type of thing) can view FOSS and other open standards as a reduction in risk across the board, and when these kind of professionals are tendering the creation of systems they specify open APIs and access to stuff. (At least in the projects that I’ve worked on, security systems in Toronto.)
This isn’t a hard rule, kinda a spectrum.
The whole legal/courts system is pretty dysfunctional at the low end of the economic spectrum (like: license fees that a group of 10s of developers might charge…) We have a shared well with our neighbor, put there by the previous owner of both properties. When he tried to sell to a previous potential buyer, they tried to hammer out a legal agreement around the shared well, and it just wasn’t feasible. The cost of anything approaching a legal agreement about sharing maintenance of the well cost more than putting in two new wells.
I gotta say I’m a bit concerned about this whole corporate takeover thing goin on in FOSS land. If companies start slapdin’ MIT or Apache licenses on GPL software that’s supposed to be all about freedom and whatnot, it does seem like a bit of a cop-out and it could have some pretty serious consequences for the community.
Here’s solution to problem https://lemmy.ml/comment/22277779
So switch to another gpl license OS is what you’re saying
either that or relicense Linux to GPLv3 which linus won’t approve.
If switching to a new OS there won’t be gaming capability. Linux finally got games working thanks to steam after 30 years. Can you imagine the time getting new drivers and game compatibility up and running.
I thought Linux was gplv3
Oh nope linux is not GPLv3 infact Linus is against GPLv3
Why is he against it?
https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/torvalds-no-gpl-3-for-linux/
There are many other articles and videos regarding issue.
The switch to permissive licensing is terrible for end-user software freedom given that corporations like Apple and Sony have leeched off of FreeBSD in the past to make their proprietary locked-down OSes that took over the market. Not sure what would happen if RedoxOS became usable in production, but if it turns out to function better than Linux enough to motivate corporations to shift their focus to it, open source versions for servers would probably still exist, but hardware compatibility on end-user devices would be at higher risk than before as vendors switch their support and stop open sourcing stuff. Or they keep focusing on Linux for server stuff due to the GPL license and the fact that their infrastructure is already on it.
That’s good point.
Another thing that is dangerous are CLAs or “contributor license agreements”, like Google uses. Technically, it is GPL, but Google might demand to hold all the copyright, so as the copyright holder it can change the license at a whim.
Also like Ente uses: https://github.com/ente-io/ente/pull/7945#issuecomment-3538457041
Let’s see how this goes then revisit the question.
A little bit.
A lot of the Rust remakes are being made by morons who have no problem using weak licenses that favor corporations.
We should hold them accountable and avoid using/contributing to their projects until they switch to a free license.
like the GPL successfully enforces
I’m not aware of the GPL being legally tested to where you can claim that; there are a lot of open questions, and it has failed to protect works from AI companies, for example.
I’m not aware of the GPL being legally tested
https://fsfe.org/activities/avm-gpl-violation/avm-gpl-violation.en.html
In context of the many failures, I don’t think this establishes anything.
GPL has certainly failed time and time again, openly in the case of FFmpeg and their clones all over Eastern Europe and elsewhere. FFmpeg made a lot of noise and resorted to “public shaming” mostly because the courts weren’t working for them. And they have a very visible product… so many GPL licensed things are lurking inside proprietary products where they’ll never be seen.
It’s like putting a license on COVID to prevent it from spreading… it just doesn’t work in the real world.
The original intention of public licenses was never to prevent code from spreading in any circumstance. Rather, that’s the “innovation” of copy-left. We just wanted a way to share our code without putting the people who used it into legal hot water. We didn’t want to control or manipulate people, using our code to extort a particular behavior out of them. We just wanted to share our code. I think copy-left makes sense in certain situations but I don’t think it should be the default option of a person wanting to contribute to culture.
We didn’t want to control or manipulate people, using our code to extort a particular behavior out of them.
The FOSS community, and even the community of developers on single large FOSS projects, is large and diverse… The royal “We” doesn’t really apply at all, even in the case of Linus and the kernel - sure, he’s a clear leader, but he’s hardly in control of the larger community and their wants.
I think the current state of open source licensing is much as it should be… MIT has its place, as does GPL, and if we’re going to pretend that intellectual property is about protecting creators, then it’s the creators who should get to choose.
In the world I live in, intellectual property is a barrier to entry that’s primarily used by organizations with a lot of power (money) to prevent others from disturbing their plans of making more money. MIT seems most appropriate for individual creators to assure that that world doesn’t come crashing into their bedroom with CDOs and lawsuits. GPL is “cute” - but I think most practitioners of GPL licensing don’t have any clue how far out of their depth they are if they should ever seek actual enforcement of their self-declared license terms. That’s not to say GPL is toothless. It gives small players a tool to amplify the trouble they can make for those who would violate their license (primarily mode of violation being by use of the code so licensed.) But, other than making minor trouble for the bigger players, thus discouraging the bigger players from entangling with them, GPL isn’t going to “make” the bigger players do much of anything other than stay away.
GPL does shape the community, it has its effects, I just get tired of hearing about the specific immediate legal language of it, because that’s far from the actual effects it has.
There was a “we” that produced the first public licenses – amateur and enthusiast software developers, who previously were simply publishing things to the “public domain”. And “we” had clear goals in doing so, which we often wrote directly into our ad hoc self-written licenses. They weren’t handed down by God, there is a mortal history, and living people here were part of it.
I agree that the GPL should be viewed as a cultural artifact, not a legal one. It’s just the spirit of shareware, but without money involved.
without money involved
Without money involved the court system is useless. The whole point of legal action around contracts is to determine what happens when the agreements of contracts have been broken.
Yes.
Anyone who cares about user freedoms is not choosing a permissive licence.
The problem is developers only caring about themselves and other developers.
When I talk to devs I know who like FOSS, they are always focussed on their needs as a dev when it comes to licences. The real concern was, and always should be, for the software user’s freedoms.
God forbid developers earning something for their work
uutils developers aren’t earning any more than coreutils developers. This is an orthogonal discussion.
Developers should absolutely get paid for their work, but as @mina86@lemmy.wtf said, that is is a different issue. There are plenty of companies that employ developers of FOSS code, both copyleft and permissive licence.
One side community wants total GPL take over and one side they don’t support total GPLv3 licenced Operating system like
How does permissive licensing lead to corporate takeover? Companies can do proprietary forks of permissively licensed foss projects, but they can’t automatically take over the upstream.
A company can throw so much manpower at the project that by adding more features and marketing the proprietary fork heavily (Extend) users start moving from the free fork to the proprietary one, and when the users are gone, the devs leave also. We end up with the original project dead(Extinguish).
I think that’s a misunderstanding of how software works. More features != better. I’m aware that many users think that, but it’s not a common view in the foss community. People in the foss community largely hate corporate enshittified bloated software and won’t use a proprietary fork that some company has added an LLM to. A project doesn’t need mainstream appeal; think about all the foss utilities written for Linux and BSDs where the target audience is “nerds”/enthusiasts/etc. These projects maintain themselves and their popularity just fine with a limited target audience. Besides, most foss isn’t for the average computer user. There’s a lot of foss that isn’t user software (libraries and OS/kernelspace software), and then there’s software like curl which can be for end users but is mostly used as a library, and the end users who use curl directly are a more technical crowd who most likely care about foss. The mainstream crowd that wants their iPhones and copilots are not making decisions between a foss option and a proprietary option.
Permissive licensing can create what is effectively “software tivoization” (the restriction or dirty interpretation of distribution and modification rights of software by the inclusion of differently-licensed components).
The Bitwarden case is a good example of how much damage can be done to a brand with merely the perception of restrictive licensing. obviously, bitwarden has clarified the mess, but not before it was being called ‘proprietary’ by the whole oss community.
So I don’t think op is referring to direct corporate takeover, but damage caused by corporate abuse of a fork.
I like non-copyleft licenses for one reason. Imagine if ffmpeg devs were like:
so many security vulnerabilities, your free labor is bad thanks for pointing that out, it’s not longer free
Most devs (including me) want to have some control over what they made. Permissive licenses allow rugpulling project if someone is using it while making YOU do stuff. ffmpeg is a great example. You may not like it but that’s how it is.
I’m going to continue releasing my software with a license that I deem appropriate.
For things I’m building only for myself or that I have no interest in building a community around, I couldn’t give a shit what people do with it or if they contribute back. My efforts have nothing to do with them. I’m releasing it for the remote chance someone finds it useful, either commercially or personally. Partially because I’ve benefited from others doing the same thing.
I’m not anti-copyleft, but the only time I actually care to use something like the GPL is for projects that would be obviously beneficial to have community contributions. Things that require more effort than I can put in, or that needs diverse points of views.
I use permissive licenses not because I’m a pushover, but because I really don’t care what you do with it.
I use permissive licenses not because I’m a pushover, but because I really don’t care what you do with it.
The point of all of this is that you really should, no matter what it is. I’m sure there is something you would object to having been a part of; protecting your labor from contributing to that only makes sense. If you really have no problems with that, then that is simply terrifying.
My labor is done. I’ve already made the product. I have nothing to protect it from. Someone copying the product deprives me of nothing.
Also, you seem to be moving into another topic of controlling how software is used which is rarely ever addressed in licenses.
There is a reason nearly every software corporation out there is allergic to GPL code, and similarly why they love MIT/BSD/Apache code. I urge you to consider why that is. Licenses do affect how software is used, that is literally the purpose of them.
There is a reason nearly every software corporation out there is allergic to GPL code, and similarly why they love MIT/BSD/Apache code. I urge you to consider why that is.
I’m well aware. Are you assuming that people using permissive licenses are somehow incapable of understanding the implication of their license choice?
Licenses do affect how software is used, that is literally the purpose of them.
You implied that I would be “contributing to something” I would object to. I’m left to fill in the gaps. Maybe be more direct in your comments.
The point of all of this is that you really should, no matter what it is.
That’s like saying: I have a pecan orchard, I like my trees and I don’t mind if people collect the nuts as they walk by. Oh, but the point is: you really should, those are your nuts, you pay the taxes on the land, you care for the trees, YOU should be the one to sell them, not give them away to some randos passing by.
Yeah, sure. You do you.
Headline 1: mangocats supports local drug dealers by providing free-to-use property under the guise of free pecans to hide young adults that indulge in drug use, promiscuity, and other acts on mangocats pecan orchard.
That’s the most obvious and potentially PC way that predators can overreach on someone’s generosity and turn a “awwe” thing (the free pecans) into people getting in trouble or hurt.
The worst is some legal jujitsu of your signage “free pecans” implying tacit and potentially unrestricted use and/or terms of use to the orchard. Now some asshole subsumes your free pecans into the bottom line of their criminal enterprise, and you’re the longest running connection providing a financial bedrock for their blah blah. Now you’re in Rico. Pecans to uncle without even hitting the blunt.
I don’t speak from experience. But I was a young adult, I do by the book things, and I also developed an imagination of what can and could happen.
Then I tried magic cigarettes and got paranoid and now all I do is cross my Ts because therenare real good people to become better from. And there’s the other kind too and they love slipping people up.
“Free nuts”
Of course, shit-for-neighbors can make all kinds of trouble out of anything. I was thinking more along the lines of MIT free nuts, take 'em, eat 'em, sell 'em, just don’t sue me over 'em. As opposed to GPL “free nuts,” must be consumed on the property. If you take a dump while you’re here be sure to bury it at least 3" deep along with any TP used. Bring your own privacy screening.
To quote Brian Lunduke, because the GPL is viral and functioning systems licensed under the GPL have been published, if a future Rust-based MIT version of Linux ever comes out, we can just “Fork it, then we’ll have our own Linux.”
To paraphrase Brian Lunduke: This software has gone woke! That software has gone woke! Boo woke software!
