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My city just got it’s first electric ferry! Pretty excited to give it a shot.
Understand that I’m from a different viewpoint as a Norwegian, but saw a diesel bus a few months back, and it was a weird blast from the past to see.
Here in north america many of our school buses are diesel and they spit so much black smoke the back of the bus is often tinted with soot. Try not to get any respiratory conditions on your way to school kids!
My only complaint as a user (without considering any of the economics, or environmental impact) is that there has definitely been a bit of an adjustment period for the drivers - I’ve seen a few standing passengers go flying when the buses accelerate from zero like go-karts.
That was true of old trolley buses.
and when the driver doesn’t use the regen braking properly, resulting in a very jerky ride
What maker?
It says Iveco on the wheel.
We had a scam in our city where our electric buses were being charged by Diesel Generators.
Which in general is a more efficient way to use the diesel than if it was in an engine. However I’m not sure in this case, as I don’t know how efficient a generator would be compared to how ridiculously efficient a modern engine is. But electric engines outclass anything out there when it comes using energy.
if you rip out an engene from a car, then you can operate it at its most efficient rpm all the time, instead of when you happen to cross the right rpm on the right gear. So an engine powering a generator can almost always be more efficient than in a car.
This is not taking the losses in the electrical system when using the generated power in a moter to make the car move. But in a lot of cases, you still come out ahead
The electrical losses are way less than the resistances of a mechanical drivetrain. It’s around 10-25% lower apparently.
Given the fact that India is the most polluted country in every single metric and one of the most corrupt, doesn’t make me think the generators they used were at all efficient lol.
To address the trolley bus comments - yes, they are better than battery buses, but my city already has a tram network and the bus network covers too much territory to justify putting trolley cables.
I hate to say it, but trolley cables are ugly, at least where I’ve seen them. It makes the streets look like old times, when each building or home had a dedicated cable going to it from a pole.
I know it’s better than batteries, but is there no other way?Oh man, but look how much more efficient they are: You have a large, high energy network to draw from when climbing very hard hills and full of passengers.
So the bus electric motor only has to pull itself, the chassis, and the passengers up the hills, instead of all the above plus a several thousand pound battery, whose weight does not vary with state of charge.
My point is, I know you’re aware they’re better, but they’re so much better to where it blasts appearance out of the question for me and others who understand the system.
There is - the electric rail. It can only be used with rail transportation, but allows to transfer power without any overhead cables.
As per buses, the only thing one can imagine is wireless power transfer from under the road, but that comes with an extreme power loss.
The best electric busses have electric lines overhead, so you don’t need big batteries.
Then you need to cable all the roads of bits networks. That seems expensive. Incidentally the tram line my city is building will be battery powered for part of its route, as they’re not allowed to string pantograph wires in one area. It’s mostly on wires
The cost is wayyyy less than letting cars on the road. And continuing the climate catastrophe
It may seem expensive now but long term it pays off by having to not replace batteries as well as many external factors that good transit provides. I find the bigger pushback against overhead wires is how they look.
It’s never enough for you people.
People love to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. They oppose incremental progress and preserve the status quo as a result.
Everything converges into either crabs or trains.
It’s not about being enough. Battery powered busses are very expensive and baterries need replacement and maintenance. Trolley buses are a cheaper investment in the long term. So it’s frustrating when new projects choose baterry buses instead of trolley buses. It always feels like corruption to me.
Trolley are better in a lot of cases, but not in all of the cases.
Trolley busses are also much better for steep inclines!
A lot less versatile and a lot more disruptive to the community.
Not entirely against them but I dont have them a the gold standard.
Kinda hard to do that in the suburbs.
Strong disagree. If you have telephone poles by the road, the power is already there
Power poles in the suburbs here (Canberra) run along back fences, they only exist near the road where they cross a road
Sydney might be able to hang wires over the road from it’s power poles; no idea if the poles are up to it
Of course they need to install overhead lines. But the power is already there. That’s the hardest part
No telephone poles anywhere near my house. Only along main roads at least 30 mins walk away.
All the household electrical wiring, internet, cable TV, telephone, natural gas, and water services are underground.
So yeah…power is already there
Yeah and it’ll cost millions to tear up the roads and install overhead wires for the bus, just to service 1 neighbourhood out of hundreds, where hardly anyone uses public transit as it is.
Don’t you realize how much it will cost us to not do that?
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness, that is life.”
― Jean-Luc Picard
Sometimes we get stuck in local extrema. The biggest challenge facing the human race is not climate change, it’s collective action. Simply put, we’re unable to cooperate effectively enough on a large scale to be able to deal with these sorts of problems.
My city could invest billions of dollars in building a fully electric streetcar transit network and climate change could still proceed largely unabated due to the actions of other people in other areas. In that scenario, my city ends up losing because climate change happened and we wasted all that money on a system that didn’t stop climate change. This is the worse possible outcome so the rational thing (on an individual level, see game theory) to do is avoid it by doing nothing.
hardly anyone uses public transit as it is
Well, that’s kind of the problem we’re trying to fix here
There are lots of people who use public transit in my city, they just don’t live in the suburbs.
But… But think about the battery megacorps!
Does anyone feel like electric buses are a type of green washing?
I like EVs, but do they make sense for something that needs to be on the road all day? Is replacing a couple hundred diesel buses bringing thousands around a day really what should be getting targeted?
Every little helps and all, but doesn’t seem like it should be considered a bug deal.
I’m not sure I follow your logic. The environmental impacts of manufacturing will be averaged out faster with something that’s getting a lot of use, and targeting the efficiency of something that gets continuous use has more impact.
Throwing away busses to switch would be silly, but it’s a perfectly good idea to switch as you maintain your fleet. Your alternative is buying more diesel busses, which… No, building a trolley or tram system which is more expensive and less flexible, or rebuilding cities to be livable without needing vehicle transportation, which isn’t happening soon and has trouble for people with mobility issues like the elderly without other some accomodation.
Like a lot of things, this case has multiple sides and is not as simple as calling it green washing.
On one side, a packed diesel buses is far more efficient and probably pollutes less per person than an electric car with a single occupant. So in a way, it’s indeed putting efforts on something that’s not very high on the list of things that pollute.
On another side, diesel buses are still polluting and the local transit authority here has a multi decade plan to electrify them. It has its own studies, and studies from the nearby universities, showing that electric buses can be attractive and effective for different types of routes, and less for others. They are replacing the buses according to this plan and it’s nothing to be against. I don’t consider this green washing, coming from a transit society, but it’s an easy target.
But yeah, electric buses from your transit society is a nice plus. However diesel buses are also just fine, and even desirable, if you use them as an alternative to driving and to reduce pollution from car traffic.
This reminds me of an old meme that I kept.
In some places that had trams, electric buses will connect to the tram power lines and charge up a bit (or at least use less of their stored energy) while in those areas.
It’s a somewhat low hanging fruit. And every little bit counts
We should not make perfect the enemy of good
Diesel buses pollute badly. Both emissions and noise.
As long as they can last all day then charge enough overnight I think they are a big improvement. Air and noise pollution sucks with diesel.
My fear is in extreme cold places, where EVs tend to have issues.
They are just better vehicles, both in terms of local pollution, and in terms of propulsion, even if it is green washing.
and noise
Ah good point, I don’t live next to a bus stop
Yeah, anything that does a lot of city driving and a lot of stop start is much better suited to electric than diesel. At my work - collecting waste - I drive an electric iveco tipper. Only had it a few weeks but already it’s so much better than the nasty old diesel I had before.
I am for electrification but I just can’t get behind electric buses.
My city made some study last year and the best way forward in terms of public transport is expansion of trolley bus network. With batteries and constant use it just doesn’t make much economic sense. If you can build the wiring it is much better in long run. You don’t have to have 100% coverage, 70+% is enough for partial battery powered trolley bus, then it starts to be economically feasible in the operating cost sense.
Also they will need to build some kind of metro system - probably as an extension of commuter trains.
Yeah… We kinda solved this problem in the late 1800’s. Overhead electric or powered third rail (depending on need) is really peak public transportation when it comes to cost and efficiency over time.
People always harp on the infrastructure cost when it comes to rail, but turn a complete blind eye on extreme cost of things like road maintenance and need for lane widening caused by everyone driving huge ass half filled busses everywhere.
Road maintenance is one of the largest expenses for most states in the US, and it’s largely so much worse than other countries because our dependency on the trucking industry. We’re all basically constantly subsidizing the trucking industry at great cost instead of funding adequate public rail.
Toronto has overhead electric trolleys. They got rid of the buses, but only because GM refused to make them. The fleet of overhead electric buses were 50 years old, they never broke.
The old GM New Look buses were incredibly reliable. We didn’t get rid of ours until about 20 years ago after decades of service.
But I get the appeal of the ebus it just sounds cheaper. One city I won’t name started to build trolley bus network again after they got rid of it in 70’s (because of metro construction and expansion of trams), but they just doing it bit idiotically by wanting to have like 30% of it on wires and rest run on batteries.
Why? Because the infrastructure is just more expensive upfront.
Will it work? Nobody knows, people that are building it lobby to get it up to at least 50/50 then it is maybe just feasible.
I think that roads and buses have place in the transportation but you just need more options not just that.
Isn’t a trolley bus just an electric bus with a “antenna” on top to charge its battery from an overhead cable?
Ours (Canberra’s) has no battery, it’s only powered by the pantograph. It’ll get a battery for where it runs through the parliamentary triangle when it eventually reaches the parliamentary triangle
Most of the ones run here don’t have batteries. It is running on wires only - with battery trolley bus you need bit different wires so you can put the “antenna” up and down when needed. And since the network was built in 50s it didn’t made sense to buy the partial ones until few years ago.
Keeping that in mind: would a good solution not be to have electric busses with batteries, which also have the umbilicle on a spring loaded or electronically actuated system to raise it to connect to the wires? This would allow said wires which would normally connect a trolley system to be placed along main strips while still allowed busses to travel along lesser used streets. The mobility of busses with the power system of trolleys to ensure they don’t have to stop to recharge or refuel, they can just connect on the main strip and keep their battery banks full.
I’d even say with something like this a supercapacitor bank to quickly charge those to 100% on connection then allow those to charge the batteries. This would help to reduce charge cycles on the battery and help to keep the batteries in a constant charge or constant discharge state instead of having every bump in the road disconnect the batteries from the grid.
Pantograph
would a good solution not be to have electric busses with batteries, which also have the umbilicle on a spring loaded or electronically actuated system to raise it to connect to the wires?
Trains. Believe it or not. Boston still uses deisel commuter trains, including one “deisel under the wire” on the electrified Amtrak line. Everyone has been pushing to electrify but it’s expensive. Their solution is battery trains. They can run them on battery now, while tAking power from catenary as it’s built. Seems like a huge waste of money, but I guess you have to transition somehow
Yes, and they’re much cheaper and last longer, since they don’t need big batteries
BEV busses need much larger batteries, while trolley busses can get away with a very small battery
I was excited when we started getting electric buses here, then I learnt we used to have trolley buses until the mid 70s. At least we got a tram line in 2021 so that’s great
So you’re saying the better alternative to electric busses is…electric busses
My city also has been rolling out electric buses the last few years and they ride so much like their gas counterpart that I wouldn’t be able to tell which is which without the design/colour scheme they chose to tell you which is which.
We have nearly all electric buses here in Oslo now, and whenever I wind up on a diesel bus I think I’m going to get hearing damage
Electric buses are far from silent, but WOW the amount of noise and stink we’ve just been tolerating with fossil fuels is insane. Even absent climate change, that’d be worth switching to electric vehicles.
I almost fucking asphixiated on a diesel bus yesterday because for some reason we had to stop for 5 minutes in the centre of the city and since it was quite cold the exhaust stayed low and just crept into the bus. Fucking traffic.
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Boston had newish hybrid deisel trolleys until 2023, when they replaced with battery electric buses.
They claimed the catenary was too expensive to maintain, especially with roadwork. Meanwhile the battery electric buses are completely self-contained, independent, and there are multiple manufacturers.
I’m sure it didn’t help that they were over complicated. This was a new transit line where everyone wanted a subway, but it was too complicated. They needed more capacity than a bus, able to maneuver tight corners, electric to go through tunnels, and unconstrained in traffic. They created Frankenstein monster and called it “bus rapid transit”. Partly dedicated roadway, partly in traffic. Partly above ground, partly below ground. Partly deisel, partly trolley. Bigger than buses but articulated to fit through narrow streets
My city is also playing with electric buses buying different brand and models. One Chinese brand they have drives me crazy because it rings a bell as it moves. It’s louder and more annoying than the gas buses.
I wish my city was running the electric buses at night. Without the noise of other traffic to help mask it, the gas ones sound like explosions as they drive by at 3a. Unfortunately the bus company said it’s cheaper to charge them at night when electricity costs the least.
Poznań, Poland has 25 hydrogen buses, and plans to have 9 more by May 2026
What is the source of energy to produce the hydrogen? The carbon footprint of hydrogen is pretty bad unless you have abundent renewable energy.
If it’s in Poland, it’s most likely coal unfortunately
Well Germany has to sell their shitty lignite coal to somebody… It’s not like their environmental laws will allow them to burn it in Germany. But Poland is fine…no one cares about the polish greenhouse gasses. That’s Poland’s problem…right?
or from plastic burning. Poland is where most EU “recycled plastics” end up being incinerated.
Edinburgh rolled them out somewhere in 2017 i think? Most of the buses are still diesel powered
Nice, i really love electric bus, it doesn’t stink and it’s quiet. My city rolled out some half decade ago, but it doesn’t last as the company that made it(Chinese) doesn’t support it anymore. Then we got another batch like last year i think. Hopefully this one last.
