Europeans are so racist, one facet of the civil rights movement in the US was black GIs being treated as humans by europeans during the war and then returning to the jim crow US. There is absolutely racism in Europe, as a continent. However, most US commenters here are conflating being less politically correct than the US with the de facto batshit insane institutionalized racism that still prevails stateside. Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people) or we have a para-military neo-nazi force arresting people because of the colour of their skin. Meanwhile black people get access to healthcare in the EU and have higher life expectancy at birth within the EU than the progressive polite US of A…
When people of color make up more than 0.02% of the population, we’ll be glad to see those humanistic policies and programs upheld.
Colour of skin =/= race.
I’ll give you a pass because you’re usanian and you guys exist in a bastardized version of civilised society.
Yeah. It’s just that we have the history and problems (and some solutions) you don’t. It’s not necessarily because you’re better people, is it.
So you’re enjoying not having to deal with either. You think it’s pretty great. There are a bunch of racists here who 100% agree.
Oh ffs, we border Africa and Asia you absolute moppet. There are far greater divisions within Europe than skin colour. France has battled England for longer than the US has existed. Denmark still has a law that allows the Danes to clobber Swedes crossing a frozen Öresund. Half of Europe was once ruled by an inbred caste of Austrians. While all of this happening, there were other races around and the peoples had commercial and social relationships. Almost the entirety of the Iberian peninsula was at some point populated by North Africans and the Roman empire was once divided between East and West.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Not sure how “we’ve hated each other for stupider reasons for hundreds of years” is your lede but, write what you know, they say.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
*myopic*. So true about the stolen land. Irrelevant to the discussion but true. Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Written like someone “educated” in the US. If only there was a discipline, I don’t know, like history, that taught thousands of examples of exactly that…
Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
It was also a European who killed Hitler, so it evens out at the end of the day.
As an American the most openly racist thing I’ve experienced in person is someone from Europe talking about the Roma. I think we just talk about racism more.
Itt:
Americans are dumb af and know it, but Europeans are dumb af and don’t know it.
OH HOW THE TURNS HAVE TABLED
My European cousins tried to explain to me that it was weird how no Jewish people died in the twin towers on 9/11, like they had all been warned. I had to patiently explain that I had friends who died in 9/11, some were Jewish, and that whatever his source was, it was likely nazi propaganda, and extremely disrespectful to repeat obvious bullshit.
I remember hearing that conspiracy theory, snopes has a detailed page about its origins: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/israelis-absent-911/
TLDR: originally it was not nazi, but Syrian propaganda. Obviously nazis pick up whatever fits their world view.
Tbf the Syrian regime had ties to Nazis
And these Syrian nazis wrote articles in the state newspaper Al-Thawra in 2001? Or what do you mean?
You just solved a 20 year old mystery that I didn’t even realize I was curious about. It was super weird, because these were relatively progressive, educated adults, and the audacity of the bigotry just sort of left me confused. This helps me understand a little bit better.
Before the modern internet it was really hard to fact check something. In 2001 in the eastern bloc it was still rare to have internet at home (in Poland only 10% of the population used the internet in 2001 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IT.NET.USER.ZS?locations=PL), and English language knowledge was very low, the compulsory second language taught in schools was Russian before 1990 (this was the case in Hungary, I guess it was common in other Warsaw-pact countries).
I just looked up the snopes article now, I didn’t know the origin story an hour ago, but I suspected it was not true. If someone just heard this gossip around that time they didn’t really have an easy way to check it, and in their long term memory it was saved as fact.
If someone just heard this gossip around that time they didn’t really have an easy way to check it, and in their long term memory it was saved as fact.
And yet - *gestures to everything*
European kids are taught that racism is bad but not how real, systemic, subtle racism actually looks. We are taught that slavery and hitler is bad, so our bar for what is acceptable is very low.
This is also why Europeans will get offended if you point out something subtly racist they did/said. They think you’re straight-up comparing them to Hitler and the KKK.
When I was in grad school I lived in an international student dorm where I was basically the only American. One day we had a party, and after a few drinks the Europeans started into this game they’ve all seemingly done a hundred times before where they started saying the most vile shit I’ve ever heard to each other while laughing. Like “OK, sure everyone in my country is drunk all the time, but it’s better than you guys letting in all those thieving gypsys!”
So they did a full round of about 20 people throwing the worst racism/nationalism I’ve ever come across in real life at each other, including absolutely dunking on the only black guy as if he was a representative for all africans, then like a hive mind they all turned to me and someone went “At least none of us are as racist as these Americans!” followed by uproarious laughter. I ask myself internally all the time if my behavior is problematic, but it seemed like these people never learned that skill but instead were taught “USA=racist, everyone else is good” and never questioned it or themselves.
For years this led me to privately think “Man, Europeans are way worse.” But then, you know, we elected Trump twice and the Klan came back dressed in camo.
That seems like how it is in the US too.
“Racism is only a thing very bad evil people do. I’m not an very bad evil person. Thus I cannot have done racism.”
“what you said was kinda racist”
“How dare you, I’m not a racist!”
The unacknowledged shift from the adjective form “racist” to the noun form “racist” is the best indicator that someone doesn’t really get what racism actually is in real life.
As an example of why that’s wrong, I can do something stupid without being a stupid.
Many people need to accept that they are not perfect, and be open to learning. Instead, many people lash out. Gotta protect their ego.
True, but nothing new there under the sun.
Everyone always laughs at the people who complain about “woke” and asks them to “define woke”, but can you define racism?
Racism
Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race or ethnicity over another. It may also mean prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against other people because they are of a different ethnic background.
From Wikipedia
a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
From Merriam-Webster
harmful or unfair things that people say, do, or think based on the belief that their own race makes them more intelligent, good, moral, etc. than people of other races
From Cambridge dictionary
As for Woke
chiefly US slang, disapproving : politically liberal or progressive (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme
From Merriam-Webster
a way of referring to the acts and opinions of people who are especially aware of social problems such as racism and inequality, used by people who think these acts and opinions have gone too far
From Cambridge dictionary as “wokeism”/“wokery”
The guy was obviously being a troll.
But, there certainly isn’t a consensus on racism. Some vocal elements demand that for for something to be racist, there also has to be a racial power imbalance working in the favor of the person being racist… and they’ll use that distinction to explain how actions that would be evaluated as racist by the definitions you provided actually aren’t if the target is in a position of racial privilege.
And, personally, I think that definition was literally seeded as a wedge by state actors for the explicit purpose of sowing discord, but here we are.
That’s just misapplying an academic definition in a colloquial circumstance, which happens a lot in various disciplines. It’s like the “what is a vegetable” question: it means different things to a botanist, chef, and tax collector.
Ah, the American Millennial: the generation that could’ve led us toward utopia if they cared more about actions than words.
(yes I see the whole academic definitions thing as a specifically Millennial trait)
Colloquially, racism means prejudice based on the perception of someone’s “race” (ie: ancestry, physical characteristics such as skin tone).
That covers things like assuming a black man knows about gangs and rap based only on their skin color.
There’s also the institutional level where individuals might not really think or feel anything about race, but it still is a factor. Stuff like closing polling places in predominantly black neighborhoods, or individual police officers who are given a quota and only assigned to black neighborhoods. Housing in the US has a long history intersecting with the idea of race. “The Color of Law” was a pretty good read on it.
Wikipedia puts it nicely:
Racism can also be said to describe a condition in society in which a dominant racial group benefits from the oppression of others, whether that group wants such benefits or not.
Such a weird take, every single other thing isn’t binary, yet suddenly racism is? Self reflection and critical thinking are what’s lacking.
Shouldn’t have to be taught to treat others with respect or how you would treat yourself.
A lot of people think and are taught in a very binary way.
Shouldn’t have to be taught to treat others with respect or how you would treat yourself
No disrespect, but I disagree. Respect is absolutely a learned behavior.
what ever respectful means is a defined by your culture. What is considered respectful is different in the uk versus the us, at least that’s what thought this post was about.
Kids absolutely need to be taught this. Kids don’t magically share, or treat each other with respect. You teach kids how to be respectful everyday.
what ever respectful means is a defined by your culture. What is considered respectful is different in the uk versus the us, at least that’s what thought this post was about.
Umm that’s racism…. You’re describing what it means to be racist. If you need to be taught that only certain things/people/races/religion/colour are to be respected… that’s why people think black people don’t have livers.
You are the issue mate, full disrespect. You are racist. If you choose be respectful to someone only to blend into those around you… you don’t deserve any respect.
You need to be taught to treat others the way you would yourself?
Or are you teaching your kids who and what to respect? Because you’re doing the latter, not the former and are perpetuating these issues.
This has nothing to do with culture at large, that’s justifications for rasicm, and that’s what you’re teaching your kids. The exact issue that’s trying to be pointed out.
Self-reflection and critical thinking are almost always defeated by social conformance among healthy well-adjusted humans. For a social animal, it is more important to agree with the group than to be objectively correct.
social conformance among healthy well-adjusted humans
By racism you mean? Those are leaned behaviors that take over from being taught that others are different from you.
Humans inherently care, and love each other. Anything else is taught by someone else who thinks they know what’s okay.
The only objectively correct way to treat anyone else is how you treat yourself. Anything else is just learned hate.
Humans inherently care, and love each other. Anything else is taught by someone else who thinks they know what’s okay.
The hell you on about? I ain’t givin shit about anybody who’s not already in my friend circle and sure as hell last time I checked I am human. Empathy varies a lot in humans, some people are naturally caring, some don’t give a damn if most people around them die, most are somewhere between so chill out.
The only objectively correct way to treat anyone else is how you treat yourself. Anything else is just learned hate.
Let others reap what they sow. Extend some respect at first and give benefit of the doubt but if they aren’t worth it, they simply aren’t worth it. Anything else and you’re gonna get used, trampled and disrespected.
And that extends to racist, homophobic or transphobic idiots who cannot argue for their stance. If a black person killed your dog and that was only black person you ever saw, yeah, fair you have bad opinion.
But if you’re like one of my coworkers who hates gay folk cause it’s fun, not respect, die in a ditch.
Please don’t talk at me. You’re not really addressing or engaging with what I said. You have a point to make that’s got nothing to do with me, take it to the top level.
Of course people don’t like it when it’s pointed out that they were actually taught to be racist.
You made a wildly racist remark in response to someone saying that everyone should be treated how they treat themselves.
Of course you’re gonna get called out.
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Lmao, this is basically religious thinking, with the inevitable “problem of evil”. If people inherently love each other, where does hate come from?
where does hate come from?
From being taught that someone is different from you in some way.
Does this seriously need to be explained? And do you think babies naturally hate? That they are capable of it without being taught? They know to love and snuggle with humans, any. They’ll even snuggle with a deadly lion. They need to be TAUGHT otherwise.
Babies don’t care about colour, or religions, they don’t even know what the fuck that stuff is dude. Until they are taught.
From being taught
And who teaches? An another human, right? But doesn’t that human also inherently love other humans? So he must’ve been taught to hate too. If you go step by step into the past, at what point is hate introduced into human society?
Babies are not fully developed human beings, they don’t have a society, culture, or almost anything else, including basic survival mechanisms, so they’re a pointless comparison. It is ridiculous to think they, left to their nature, wouldn’t develop communities, trust and suspicion, stereotypes, etc. that can eventually build up to racism. We have documented wars among literal apes, humans are definitely not much nicer in their natural state (whatever that might be - it can’t be just “being a baby”).
And the human teaching the baby can CHOOSE what to teach the baby. If you’re teaching it to respect XYZ during ABC, you’re teaching it hate.
Babies and kids share, yes there will be fights, that’s also human nature, but look at those reasons. To provide shelter for those close. They aren’t doing it out of hate, it’s for protection or other issues.
Just because someone takes your food doesn’t mean you go to war, invite them, share with them. Yes it can go south, but that’s also taught behavior. The chain has to be broken somewhere, and if you need it to be pointed out that you’re one of the issues… well the cutters are there. Just because the past has hate, doesn’t mean you need to perpetuate it forward.
I’m Canadian and this is how I was raised too. Racism = Hitler, KKK, and neo-nazis. That’s why it’s bad.
So if you’re going to call someone racist, don’t be surprised if they think you’re comparing them to Hitler or the KKK.
And if you’re going to say that there’s different levels of racism and some are only as bad as stepping on someone’s toes, don’t be surprised if people don’t really care.
Only as bad as stepping on people’s toes
Well, only as bad as someone who cares whether or not they step on some people’s toes, and doesn’t notice/doesn’t care if they step on other people’s toes.
Europeans when asked about the Romani
fuckin shame innit.
What German kids in the 19th century got taught:
An 1845 German children’s book called “Der Struwwelpeter” has a story about three boys teasing a dark-skinned boy. Saint Nicholas is punishing them.
Struwwelpeter is absolutely horrible, esp. the fact that it was sold as an actual children’s book and apparently well enough to be remembered forever.
I just learned that the guy called himself a psychiatrist. In 1844, this was a very different kind of science. He was very pleased with the success of his book - which he wrote for a 3-year old relative - until his death.
That said, I did not know he spoke out against bullying of minorities.
I wanna party with those tiny men.
edit: not while they do a racism, they just look like fun lil guys…
History in school focuses on European history, which doesn’t really have much racism in it (it has other not-fun stuff). And until fairly recently, especially for eastern Europe, there weren’t that many people of color, so you wouldn’t really encounter racism as an issue. I mean, your parents would say some wild stereotype about black people, but no one would bat an eye, so you wouldn’t know that it’s bad. With internet and general globalization it’s changing now, but there’s still a long way to go
European history “doesn’t really have much racism in it”? Huh? You sure we’re talking about the same european history here? Maybe in some parts of Europe this isn’t taught, but I definitely learned in school about colonialism, the transatlantic slave trade, the Nazi’s racism against Slavs and Romas etc…
… So those lessons on the many centuries of European colonization** included zero self reflection on the racism involved?
I’ll start by saying that I didn’t pay too much attention during history classes, but it probably just puts me closer to the average person on that topic.
The way I remember history classes (I’m from Poland), is that they were heavily focused on our country (excluding sections where we talked about ancient history, obviously) and on how our country fought to keep existing. The wars it had with its neighbors, the fights over land, etc. And Poland didn’t really participate in colonialism, so it was just mentioned that other countries went to Africa and got slaves, but that’s mostly it. And we knew that slavery is bad. But there wasn’t too much effort on elaborating on this topic. Partially because that realization is still trickling in.
I’m simplifying a lot, but I think that’s mostly what you’d carry out of those lessons. Maybe there was a week where we talked about the civil war in America, but that’s very little compared to the rest of the topics, so it doesn’t stay with you.
If you consider the history of Poland, it kind of makes sense. There was a lot of struggle to not be eradicated, to preserve our culture, etc. And that’s reflected in what we learn in school.
And I’m not defending the way it is now. I personally don’t like how “selfish” the point of view in those classes is. But I am sharing my experiences and thoughts, to add some context.
History lessons are a bunch of names and dates that you have to learn by heart. We went there, we made this place, we came back with this shit, we made a church. Here’s a family tree. Even when learning about battles and borders, we don’t get to ask “why were they here? Why were we there?” We just know that we were at war because this king and that king disagreed. Sometimes, at best, one of them just wants control of this location or someone’s wife banged the wrong duke, but that’s almost only for intra European conflicts - and Jerusalem.
Ethnic social issues came very late. Jews and other wandering populations are completely ignored.
History lessons don’t have to be that way, that’s just the way they’ve decided to present these topics to remove the horrible shit their countries did during them
European history is basically “and these people there killed each other because they didn’t like the pope” so it’s not exactly a surprise we are less sensitive to “this is racist” rhetoric, when every single possible reason has been used to justify slaughtering each other. If St. Barthelemy was not racist, why should the crusades be?
American history is pretty much always them murdering non-whites, in comparison
Note that I’m not defending the reasoning, or the problems it creates today, but I see way too many people online acting like Europeans were all BFFs before the empires came up
Do Europeans just not learn about the scramble for Africa and the Berlin Conference of 1885 or something? How do you have so many colonial powers and none of your history classes touch on the murdering of non-whites? This feels like some truly insane educational blinders
EDIT: Corrected conference date
Yeah, even in the US (who Europe makes fun of for not knowing history) we spent a ton of time on the triangle trade with Africa (which Europe was very much the creator of and active participant in).
Like the “we didn’t have a lot of racism here” when they were the powers enslaving the native populations to sell to their other colonies…is an insane thing to say.
A significant part of Europe did not participate in the scramble for Africa, which can in part explain OP pic - the guy is from Poland.
There was no Berlin conference in 1845.
Anyway, each country has its own educational system, with different scope and methods of teaching history (unavoidably wildly different due to different national histories), so making any blanket statement on what is taught in Europe is a minefield. Now, I’m pretty sure most kids in Europe are taught about the colonisation of Africa, but how exactly it is presented, how much weight is given to it, how it is integrated into broader cultural discourse (including e.g. does anyone even talk or care about it outside school history lessons) can vary wildly.
Practically speaking, why would Poles have to care e.g. about English colonisation of India a whole lot? Do you really think such stuff can be relevant enough to strongly shape people’s worldview?
Sorry, I wanted to confirm the name and it is listed on wikipedia as the Berlin Conference of 1884-1885, and I typo’d it anyway. I think it should be relevant enough to shape peoples worldview though. Its hard not to see parallels with the current campaigns of genocidal colonial starvation.
I can only speak for Germany’s history education.
Yes it did touch the scramble for Africa and Germany’s colonies. But colonialism is a comparitively minor part of that period (1890 - 1920) for Germany so it was the focus for a couple of lessons only. The genocide was covered - but again, only for like a single lesson or two.
There’s just a bit too much history to cramp it down into 90 minutes per week and go over in detail, especially since teaching about the world wars is a priority.
I mean, we literally crammed the period 1970ish to reunification within a single lesson at the very end of 12th grade because we ran out of time.
That’s a fair point. I don’t know that I would say colonialism was minor for Germany, but I suppose the advantage of American education is you have a lot fewer years of crimes against humanity to cover since its a younger country.
People avoid self-reflection until the last possible moment. It’s unideal, but unsurprising, especially when one sees themselves as uninvolved.
Is it really self reflection when the question is. Should a HUMAN be punched in the face.
The issue is, they think they aren’t human, so they don’t even stop to think. Kids should be taught that everyone is equal, not the specifics of racism, what does that accomplish? Just reinforces that they think they aren’t human?
I mean, your parents would say some wild stereotype about black people
Why would they? There’s been practically no black people here, and little reason to have stereotypes about them. People would say wild shit about the Roma, they’re the default kicking bag in many parts of Europe.
Because it’s funny (to them) and because no one will fight back. The fact that there are no black people here means that you’re free to say whatever you want.
I’d give some examples, but honestly it feels wrong to even quote it, so I’ll pass.
I’ll just add that it isn’t even “agressive racism” (where they hate them or something), just ignorance and lack of reflection.
Where are you from?
Y’all got no world history classes?
Of course, but did your world history classes talk about racism? I’d guess that was a theme in the classes about your own country’s history, whichever country you happen to be from, but not really in world history.
You needed to be taught the basics of the two world wars, the concept of dark ages and renaissance, something about Roman empire probably, etc. And people from countries whose history doesn’t include noteworthy amounts of racism have to learn about the same amount about their country as you had to learn about yours, and have about the same amount of teaching time left for teaching the same things about world history that were taught to you.
Of course, but did your world history classes talk about racism?
Kinda, when the slave trade and the US civil war was covered. I don’t remember how in-depth it was at the time. Was briefly covered in law classes too iirc.
I’d guess that was a theme in the classes about your own country’s history
We had white (by modern standards) slaves and white slaveowners. Nationality/ethnicity is more important, and the reason for most of the killings and hate and bigotry in the region.
In a sense it was a blessing, gave us a better class consciousness, and made me realize sooner how dumb the concept of a race is. Unless self-applied it’s pointless at best, and at worst very harmful.
We do, but they are simply not the focus. There’s still a very heavy patriotic rhetoric
I’m barely european and it was a 50-50 split. We had a much heavier emphasis on the rest of the world towards the end of the school program/start of college program.
Either way it shouldn’t be taught as part of just history class, law/ethics/literature (at least) come to mind.
Americans aren’t anti-intellectual. We have a VERY high percentage that ARE.
The fascist portion of politics is staunchly anti-intellectual, but most of their supporters wouldn’t know what it looks like.
Being from Europe doesn’t mean you can’t be stupid. It’s just harder because it’s encouraged not to.
Я думаю, поляк имел ввиду что он просто не сталкивался с расизмом в жизни, поэтому и не знал что это такое
I don’t speak British, sorry.
Я думаю, що багато європейців вважають, що расизму не існує в їхніх куточках світу. Це легко стверджувати, коли всі у вашій країні виглядають і говорять так само, як ви.
Я думаю, что русскоговорящих на Лемми почти нет.
Edit: it’s funny how in a thread about racism, people are massively downvoting comments in a language other than English: D
Que raro, el otro comentario está en otro lenguaje también y no tiene ese problema. Será que es la asociación con ese lenguaje debido ha eventos corrientes que es el problema con el estigma del lenguaje?
Ist das wirklich lustig, auf eine ironische Art, oder vielleicht einfach nervig, weil es die meisten nicht lesen können?
I assume it’s because you’re writing in Russian and there’s a lot of (deserved) anti-Russian sentiment lately.
Sounds like racism. The downvotes were also piled upon the guy who responded in Ukrainian, btw.
Uhh, that’s a really weird fucking thing to do imo. Just because China has a dogshit government doesn’t mean I should downvote any post in Mandarin, nor would I go off on a Russian comment simply for existing without knowing any context. Like are people downvoting English comments just cause Trump sucks? You have no idea if that Russian person likes Putin/invading Ukraine.
