To this day, she remembers the racing thoughts, the instant nausea, the hairs prickling up on her legs, the sweaty palms. She had shared a photograph of herself in her underwear with a boy she trusted and, very soon, it had been sent around the school and across her small home town, Aberystwyth, Wales. She became a local celebrity for all the wrong reasons. Younger kids would approach her laughing and ask for a hug. Members of the men’s football team saw it – and one showed someone who knew Davies’s nan, so that’s how her family found out.
Her book, No One Wants to See Your D*ck, takes a deep dive into the negatives. It covers Davies’s experiences in the digital world – that includes cyberflashing such as all those unsolicited dick pics – as well as the widespread use of her images on pornography sites, escort services, dating apps, sex chats (“Ready for Rape? Role play now!” with her picture alongside it). However, the book also shines a light on the dark online men’s spaces, what they’re saying, the “games” they’re playing. “I wanted to show the reality of what men are doing,” says Davies. “People will say: ‘It’s not all men’ and no, it isn’t, but it also isn’t a small number of weirdos on the dark web in their mum’s basements. These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”
This is what happens when you let your son’s role models be sociopathic pieces of shit like the Tate brothers, Fresh and Fit, and the assorted fucking losers on Youtube who still use “SJW” like it’s 2015.
There are some pretty awful takes in these replies. It seems a fair number of men here at least vacation near the “manosphere”.
Pro tip - I’ll absolutely snitch on the guys I know that you probably shouldn’t date. Maybe you have a male friend that’s the same.
I feel like I’m in a different universe to most people. Only chance I get to call anyone out for anything is littering and playing music loudly in public. Honestly feels like confirmation bias, but I’m sure I’m wrong.
I mean, if you went to 4chan you could presumably call out more, but it’d be kind of like yelling into a hurricane. Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
IRL bigots tend to hide their shit from non-target non-bigots.
Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
The cause of and consequences of The Man-o-Sphere in a nutshell. People get drawn in by the promise of gamified easy answers to relationships (via PUA community, evangelist trad-life influencers, and other self-help gurus). But it’s a bait-and-switch, with “advice” drifting from “how to find an easy relationship” into “why women are awful and you should hate them.”
If it makes you feel any better, I can ping you next time I encounter misogyny on Lemmy? It’s far less toxic than a lot of online places, but it’s definitely got corners where offensive takes get upvoted.
Transitioning to male and having the amount of sexual harassment and catcalling I get in public reduced by like half (still look ambiguous) has been crazy. I was followed home by a car recently, they yelled at me to join them, I responded “what??” with my now deepened voice and they said “nevermind” and drove away. I think about that a lot and what may have happened if they’d done that a year earlier
I just like that she calls out and lumps in 4chan with Reddit and Discord—because that’s really what’s it’s become now. I mean there are dicks lurking and active in any corner of the Internet but those platforms in particular are obviously mainstream enough or known to harbor all kinds… especially the kind she talks about.
It’s insane to me that the greatest threat to women is dating men. Who the hell is raising these guys? Even in my worst days I never blamed women for my dating problems - I blamed myself. Therapy helped with that problem though. But the motives of mass misogyny are just opaque to me. Sort your shit guys, don’t be a bastard.
The internet is raising them. They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior. They aren’t going outside and trying this shit on women who will reject their bad behaviors. Or worse running to legal trouble for harassing or assaulting women. Whereby it used to be the guy would self reflect and realize he’s doing it wrong.
The internet is telling them stories about how these behaviors are what the “alpha” males are doing to successfully get all the women. What is the bullshit stat? Like 1% of top men get 99% of women or some stupid shit.
The internet lies to them, painting a dark twisted world. And then these guys go out to the real world to treat women in the way they think the world is some kind of dark world. They get extreme negative experiences. Which to them proves that the internet was right about everything.
They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior.
Expecting men to beat the shit out of people doing the “wrong” things is also a really big problem and isn’t a solution either.
I remember in the late 80s when i was really young hearing about gay bashing as if it was a perfectly okay thing to group to and go do.
I remember people talking about Freddie Mercury coming out as gay and not feeling comfortable asking why that is a problem for fear of being targeted myself.
I don’t have any answers
beat the shit out of people
It’s not literal. You seriously don’t know what social conditioning is???
gay bashing
I have no clue how you derived homophobia from this.
This is either a troll or poor reading comprehension.
edit: I just saw your other replies. You’re being deliberately obtuse to derail the thread.
Make people feel bad about who they are through intimidation and violence. It’s not okay unless you are “over if there good ones”
“It’s not literal!”
Cool cool cool
Meanwhile concentration camps are in vogue
A rapist and convicted felon is the POTUS
And Andrew Tate is the new young mans hero.
Yeah im so unhinged
In the 80s and 90s we always called our friends gay but to me it was just friendly ribbing.
One ex friend we did beat the fuck out of for hitting his girlfriend.
This is unhinged and nonsensical, either you have poor English reading comprehension or this is a troll post. I’ll let mods decide.
I say let it stand as a testament. Incels bring out the big guns when you get too close to reality. I’ve noticed this pattern over the years.
The propaganda is something to behold. This is the kind of thing young men are being bombarded with.
I say let it stand as a testament.
I know you’re joking around, but I’ll take advantage of the moment to rant on a tangent for a bit. I legit saw this attitude spreading through the moderator space on reddit a decade ago, as they started getting influenced by users to let slide more and more horrible takes so that “the community can judge for themselves” as tender, shut-in lads and lasses who were trying to manage our largest discussion forums without pay were suddenly being bombarded from all sides by people trying to subvert the subreddits and control them for their own agendas.
And largely, it worked. Many, many times I’ve seen subreddits and forums on other sites fall because the mods got compromised, the other mods got too burned out or emotional to keep doing their tasks, and as a result the conversations started allowing more and more incel-bait, tired tropes of persecution and misogyny, foulmouthed, delusional teenagers who have never left their houses suddenly making profound statements about the state of gender dynamics, and a whole ARMY of foreigners pretending to be normal Americans or Europeans on both sides of every argument, just screaming their nonsense louder and louder until the only users left were the ones who agreed with the delusion. I wish people understood that some of the most famous horrible subreddits and sites started as jokes and were gradually co-opted and hijacked to become unironic hate-spaces.
This was the plan all across the internet and it worked. We are all so tired of every argument and issue that most people don’t engage anymore. We don’t even try to correct anyone because we assume either other users know better, or will sort it out for us, or who cares anyway, what’s even real? Just tune out, keep scrolling.
So now I say, no. We need to be far less tolerant of intolerance, we need to burn them out of their nests and dens. Reddit didn’t go nearly far enough with banning the incel subs, they should have banned incel ideology, they should have banned redpill rhetoric entirely. I once would have balked at that kind of “censorship” but I’m now watching my nation dissolve under the stupidest movement ever created and I’m somewhere between shaking with rage and shaking with exhaustion.
Redpill, incel, gender-normative bullshit is violence. It seeks to hurt men by forcing them into the mold of “masculinity” (and defines that masculinity, in some places, in a very toxic fashion) and we all know how it hurts women.
It needs to be fought back, and as furiously as fascism.
This sentiment is why i commented. It does need to be pushed back against. Thank you
Point taken. Looks like the guy is standing pat with his full blown alternate reality narraive. And he’s still gotten more upvotes inspite of being so unabashedly in bad faith.
Ah well I wish mods would have nuked the whole comment chain.
Care to explain how I’m unhinged?
Speaking of poor reading skills, im specifically referring to physical abuse as a form or deterrent.
Maybe you havent experienced physical abuse, but i have.
I felt like I understood your original post, so I hope you’re okay if I try to bridge the misunderstandings? If at any point I misunderstood, let me know.
They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior.
Expecting men to beat the shit out of people doing the “wrong” things is also a really big problem and isn’t a solution either.
I feel like this boils down to: having men use physical violence to coerce other men into “proper” behavior isn’t the solution. The scare-quotes around “wrong” imply the term being potentially misused.
I remember in the late 80s when i was really young hearing about gay bashing as if it was a perfectly okay thing to group to and go do.
You note that groups used violence against gay people in the 80s, and that it was considered acceptable. I read this and the next sentence as being an example, provided to support your first sentence.
I remember people talking about Freddie Mercury coming out as gay and not feeling comfortable asking why that is a problem for fear of being targeted myself.
The fear of violence was such a severe deterrent, that even questioning why being gay was “wrong” could have led the group to assume you were gay and thus become violent against you.
I don’t have any answers
Although you don’t believe in corporal punishment, you don’t know what the answer would be. (Which is totally fair, IMO.)
Is that the gist of what you meant?
If so, I suspect people lost track of your point around the term “gay bashing.” Most people these days probably associate that term with someone speaking poorly of gay people, which sucks, but is relatively tame compared to what I thought you meant - which was, groups that went around literally bashing, as in physically attacking, gay people. (Which was, and still is in some places, an absolutely real thing.) It’s possible that this misunderstanding derailed the rest of your comment, leading readers away from your point.
Thank you, that’s a pretty fair assessment.
This was what I took away from his comment as well. His personal experience with physical abuse likely lead him to interpret “slapped upside the head” in a more visceral way than I think OP intended. The jump in ‘rhetorical spiciness’ tends to prime the reader a certain way. He expressed his doubt and confusion but only after bringing up a seemingly unrelated (and potentially bigoted) example.
Nobody understands a thing you’re saying, I think you don’t grasp the concept of “context” like so many internet drones. I’m blocking you now, have a good day
Lemmy is such a friendly place…
Yeah, I tend to think that men who’d want dating women would be easier would form an organization and lynch those fucks.
it’s so easy.
It’s insane to me that the greatest threat to women is dating men
Yet men are the leading cause of death for women. You’re correct, it is absolutely insane, but until those types of men can sort out their fragile masculinity problems here we are unfortunately.
the hairs prickling up on her legs
Some incel somewhere: “WTF IS THIS WOKE BULLSHIT!?!?!?!”
Sending unwarranted dick picks should get you a sizeable fine, maybe 600 bucks and a 2 year registry in a sex offender list.
Give you a choice to stop fucking up and if you escalate and keep doing it then things get worse for oyu.
Unsolicited naked pics have no place in society. We’re not talking porn here, we’re talking Joe sending a picture of his schlong to Mary like she is going to be ohh yeah let’s do that.
People with that mindset are seriously damaging other people. They’re the reason women are afraid to go on walks at dusk.
The penalty for that deserves some staying power. You’re on the list; to get off the list, you need counseling and a psych eval. I’d go so far as to say mandatory house arrest until you get the counseling and eval.
its weird and gross to do, but like how is seeing people naked so bothering to you people?? would a nude beach cause you to have a brain hemorrhage?. if I see something like that it doesn’t hurt me mentally somehow??
to you people?
Seeing naked people is fine, if someone asks for it.
Someone forcing you to see them naked for their own pleasure is rapey.
I understand the intentions behind it, but I’ve never given a crap when someone sends me a dick pic. I just block them and move on with my day. It just seems like people in this comment section over react to this. (the other stuff is fucked up though)
Ignoring the problem is the right individual move, but as a society, it simply tells the person doing it that it’s ok and there won’t be consequences for it.
It’s a dick pick for you today, but it might be their unwilling coworker in the alley when they work themselves up to it.
It’s a psychiatric issue and if everyone ignores it, it won’t just go away, it just becomes someone else’s problem.
The difference between the nude beach and getting unsolicited dick pics, is if you go to a nude beach, you kinda agreed to see naked people.
Why an expiry? It’s the digital equivalent of flashing someone. In australia that gets you a six month sentence, a $1,100 fine, or both.
It would limit watering down the register with ‘minor’ offenses. It would also help avoid trapping an idiot teen in a negative spiral, due to a stupid drunken mistake 10 years previously.
If a teen made a “studpid drunken mistake” flashing someone in the street and copped the same, would you feel they had been unfairly penalised?
Context matters a lot. However, in general, it’s a far lower crime than many in that category. Critically, it’s not of the level to be desirable to destroy their future over. The punishment should be enough to deter and correct, but not more.
Many/most of us have been idiotic teens before. Society’s goal should be to correct and improve. Not go in with sledgehammers aimed at skulls. In many cases, the embarrassment alone would be enough to do the job. The law just needs to drive that point home.
which is why underaged are charged differently. Dismissing shit as “Idiot teens” when talking about deliberate exposure of your genitals to unwilling parties really smacks of Stubenville though.
This is a crime that we let get normalised. Don’t continue the normalisation.
Idiot teen is an explanation, not a dismissal. Nowhere did I say to ignore it. My point is that there is a gradient of both crimes and intents. If there is no matching gradient in legal response, then it can lead to injustice.
An idiotic crime will often need fairly minor corrections. A malicious crime requires FAR more of a response. Treating all crimes as malicious ends up diluting the view on truly malicious crimes. It can also drive individuals into the very situation you want to move them away from.
What if they were banned from owning a smartphone or any camera phone? And banned from social media?
Impossible to enforce
Some countries manage to enforce it better. But I agree it would be more difficult to enforce this in the west.
I know a lot of guys in the comments are saying they don’t see it so they don’t have the opportunity to call it out. And some of those guys are making good points! These communities probably don’t interact much with men that treat women with respect.
But I also wonder how much of that stuff happens and they don’t realize it’s harmful to women. Obviously sharing photos isn’t okay so that’s an easy one to call out.
It’s not a man’s fault that he doesn’t see it, necessarily. You don’t have the same experiences as women and it just doesn’t occur to you as often. Women are on alert 24/7.
Kinda like that thing about the number of guys who feel safe walking to their car at night vs the number of women. (I know some men are anxious in that scenario too, but nearly ALL women are.)
When I was an elementary school aged kid, I was afraid to play outside at my grandmas house because a man drove by yelling cat calls. This actually happened a couple times growing up.
At 14, a random man followed me home from school.
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape. But really that’s just the number reported.
Every single woman I know has experienced sexual assault or rape of some kind. (I didn’t ask my coworkers to be fair).
That’s bonkers.
But I do appreciate those of you that are trying to be better! The comments here are reassuring and give hope for the future!
I don’t interact with anybody who does this. Really, outside of my wife and my close family I don’t interact with anybody. Partially due to being assaulted multiple times, my anxiety goes through the roof.
It’s horrible how some people treat each other, but understand just because I’m perceived to be part of a specific gender doesn’t mean I have meaningful opportunity to do anything about it. I’m just a human, and while I agree other humans are often bad, it’s out of my scope to do anything really impactful. I understand what is happening. It’s much much worse than you state. It’s worse in ways I probably would get banned for typing out on this site. Worse than you can possibly imagine. That’s something society needs to address, and as an individual I cannot convince other people how bad it is or how extreme of action we need to take. And not for lack of trying.
It’s good threads like this spread awareness, but reduction will not further the cause of improving the situation.
There are some cultures that are so female unfriendly it isn’t funny, some of that has to do with religion and some of that doesn’t. That’s also one of the harsh realities of combating things like this because some people actually grew up and learn that women and worth less or some other kind of bullshit.
The other side of this coin is that in books and articles like this and heck even your comment only women get victimized or men get targeted. Yes statistically men are way more the cause of (sexual) abuse, misogyny or whatnot. Same with that women have it statistically worse partially because of some culture and partially because some people are just dicks and/or sick in their head. Some men (especially gay’s, minorities and insecure people) get (sexually_ abused by women or other men, but that generally flies under the radar way more since they are often not believed.
That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!
You’re absolutely right about sexual assault against men. I thought what Terry Crews did was heroic. Even when he didn’t want to speak out, he knew he needed to be a leader and he spoke up.
I didn’t leave it out from a lack of concern. I was just making a point by how unsafe women feel in every aspect of their lives, not just occasionally in a Reddit forum.
Trans people, especially black trans people, are targeted in at a whole other level and are often ignored in reporting. They don’t deserve that.
Crazy that we all can’t just respect each others right to live.
Not sure I know exactly what you mean with what Terry Crews did.
I know you didn’t mention it for nefarious reasons or anything. I just wanted to mention it :P
And yeah we should all respect eachother.
Terry Crews was sexually assaulted by the head of a Hollywood talent agency while at a party in 2016.
Initially, he was embarrassed and angry. He didn’t want to talk about it, but after talking to his wife and seeing what the Weinstein accusers were doing, he decided to speak up about it. Seems that he wanted men to know to know it can happen to them too and to not be afraid to speak up.
I think it’s really important for other men (and other genders) to see that. Maybe more people will be brave enough to speak out too.
That you don’t know is a depressingly perfect example of how effectively this has been marginalized by society. Fuck.
To be fair I don’t live in the US so it’s entirely possible that it hasn’t even been mentioned in my circles.
That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!
If someone is talking about an issue, it is not helpful to bring up a different issue. They are not dismissing the other issue, it’s simply not the topic being discussed. To bring up another issue when one is trying to be discussed is actually dismissive of the problem at hand. It’s like you’re trying to change the subject. You should not try to bring awareness of a problem on the thread of a different problem. Just create a thread about the problem, where the subject at hand can be that alone. If you made a post about men being victimized, and someone said “but what about women being victimized” I’m sure you could see that being problematic and dismissive.
You are absolutely going to see more posts about women being victimized. That does not mean people do not care about victimized men, it just means it’s happening to women more often. There should absolutely be support and a movement for men. But, at least right now, it is separate from the movement for women.
I disagree it’s a different problem, it’s the same problem besides the gender.
It is a different problem though. Men do no have the same systematic sexism women face. There are absolutely problems men face, but they are different. Women are much more often taken advantage of, abused, and discriminated against for their sex. So when we talk about womens problems, to then mention mens problems is pulling away attention from the problems women face. Men have historically held most, if not all, the power. That is still true to this day. Men abuse that power over women more than women abuse that power over men.
Not to mention, the problems men face when coming out about abuse are ENTIRELY different problems than a woman faces, like you said so yourself. That alone seems to me like the issues are different, meaning they would have different solutions to them. Thus, their movements would be two separate movements.
It’s not just about how you’re treated by these communities, it’s how they work mechanically.
For example, on reddit if you engage with these people, you will not only be deleted and banned from their sub, you will also be auto-banned by a bunch of opposing subs. You get one chance to participate before you need to circumvent the platform by creating a new account.
It’s simply not feasible to engage with them online in this way, and that’s ignoring the time and emotional energy you need to spend to do it in the first place.
The issue needs to addressed at a societal level. As a society we value all the wrong things in men and few of the right things. A lot of these guys end up in these communities specifically because they feel they can’t meet the ludicrous standards created for them, and place the blame solely on women instead of our wider culture.
I’m sorry, wasn’t this you victim blaming hours ago?
Ah yes, let’s keep painting everyone dating some redpill asshole as a gigantic powerless victim who needs help from men to be freed. Give me a fucking break.
If you choose to fuck a known redpill male, you are an asshole and you deserve to be called out for it. I’m sick of this bullshit mentality that people’s sexual choices are beyond reproach, and if anything goes wrong with them, then they are a victim and it’s someone else’s fault.
I’m feel for people who are actually victims of abuse, but not for people who made a shitty choice and now want to offload their role in the decision to “society”.
Amazing how you can drum up all this sympathy for red pilled men - which I agree with on some level, because usually targeted, vulnerable men turn to these communities and are in many ways victims themselves - but you are so hostile to the people they mistreat and put so much onus on the victims they then target to do something about it. Not to mention your whole point was “they’re not all victims” while also arguing these men are “misunderstood” and need help at the “societal level” - not their partners though! That’s the woman’s fault for sticking around.
It’s unbelievable. You’re tying yourself up in knots to make this idea work.
Choosing to fuck a piece of shit, when you know they’re a piece of shit, doesn’t make you a victim, and I’m not entertaining this pity party claim that everyone fucking a MAGA asshole is in an abusive relationship. They aren’t. But I feel for the ones who are.
Also you’re putting words in my mouth. I never said these men were “misunderstood”. I explained how they got there in the first place. Their beliefs and actions are clear as day. I do not sympathize with them more than abused women. But you don’t want to engage my actual points, you want to set up a straw man and pull your self-righteous, self-pitying manipulative bullshit instead, which is exactly what I knew would happen.
If you dine with a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you befriend a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you fuck a Nazi, you are a Nazi.
choosing to fuck a piece of shit
Jesus Christ what is wrong with you? Right out the gate your total disdain for women is on full display.
All this sympathy for abusers, none for victims. You are so backwards on this. You need to reevaluate your online communities man. You are getting red pilled HARD. You are in dangerous corners of the internet.
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape.
And that was shown to be complete horseshit arrived at by defining ‘sexual assault or rape’ in a survey more broadly than any reasonable person ever would.
It’s similar to the survey in the 80s all the ACABers cite to claim 40% of cops are domestically violence–in that survey, even if a voice was raised one time in the past six months, and it was the cop’s spouse yelling at the cop, that survey dumped the relationship in the domestic violence bucket. Big surprise that 40% figure has never been replicated since, lol.
One example: at the end of a first date that you weren’t really feeling, the guy goes in for a kiss and you decline? Guess what, even if he completely accepts the denial and the date ends without incident, that went in the “sexual assault” bucket, regardless of whether the woman herself felt anything bad had happened.
Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn’t matter if you were just tipsy, doesn’t matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn’t matter whether you think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.
Stuff like that is the only way to get to a figure so absurd.
First of all, the Washington Examiner is a right-wing news outlet. They have a bias in there reporting and it shows.
Second, the number of sexual assaults on campus is likely significantly higher according to more recent information.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/04/news-campus-sexual-assault
Last, if someone assaults a person who doesn’t believe they were assaulted, does that count?
Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn’t matter if you were just tipsy, doesn’t matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn’t matter whether you think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.
What is that person had passed out drunk and doesn’t remember it? Is it rape now? What if that person has a learning disability or communication disability? Do you think that’s rape?
My point here is that something can be true if the person isn’t aware of it. I presume people are also more likely to say they’ve received unwanted physical interactions than to say they were raped.
You know, society used to think you couldn’t rape your wife either.
Why are you proposing scenarios other than the ones I used to specifically exemplify the fact that the measure of sexual assault/rape was massively overinflated?
Do you think “but what about the situations that are rape” is a counterargument to that? My point is that they counted a lot MORE in ADDITION to those legitimate scenarios, and that’s why such a scary number was arrived at.
The bottom line fact is, no survey etc. that doesn’t massively dilute the definitions of those terms has ever or will ever reach a conclusion like “1 in 5 female college students have been sexually assaulted or raped”. There is a reason that figure isn’t being thrown around anymore these days–it’s been debunked thoroughly.
99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing, but with billions of people and instant communication. this type of thing is bound to pop up. and because normal people aren’t looking at this type of thing, they’re echo chambers of degeneracy. but it really bothers me when people use sex based generalizations for things like this. millions of people isn’t very much on a global scale.
I think it is more widespread than you imagine. If admiration for Andrew Tate is an indicator of seriously misogynistic attitudes, then the statistics (for the UK) are quite shocking:
Nearly a quarter (23%) of 15-16-year-old boys have a positive view of Andrew Tate compared to only 10% of girls at this age.
Furthermore, one-third of dads (32%) view Andrew Tate favourably compared to 10% of mums. This positive view is even higher among young dads: 52% of 25-34-year-old dads compared to 19% of mums.
Additionally, 49% of 25-34-year-old dads believe their child has a positive view of Andrew Tate.
Source: https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/research/research-into-online-misogyny-and-image-based-abuse/
Man these numbers are horrific we need to bring back McCarthyism but for these people
Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Andrew Tate
bring back McCarthyism
Fuck outta here with that authoritarian bullshit. You truly want to hold millions of people responsible for falling victim to Zuck getting high off Cambridge Analytica and globalizing the flood-gates of shit spewing? Content serving algorithms have torn communities apart, promoted violence and hate world-wide for most of the past 20 years. That’s plenty of time for ‘re-education’ and here we are reaping the benefits.
Hurt people hurt people. Human billionaires hurt society. Generational wealth oppressing generational trauma. Authoritarianism leads to the same power imbalance, and purging ideologies is anti-human.
Not when the ideologies in question are anti-human it’s not
Yeah, I’ll give you that one.
Maybe my opinion is influenced by my geographic position. I never would have imagined that many people of my generation support him. Where I live, saying you like Andrew Tate would be like saying you support Putin, maybe worse.
Then I’ve got some bad news for you about Putin, too.
99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing
wow. naive.
Yeah, these days I’m thinking it might actually be a double digit percentage that’s onboard. The manosphere has enough reach to affect elections now, which I did not see coming.
I get called a conspiracist for linking the actual reports and investigations into this, but this was by design.
Almost every authoritarian/fascist uprising on record has started with the indoctrination and isolation of young, sexually insecure, lonely men who feel disenfranchised with the system because they’re depressed, horny and have mixed-up ideas how to be liked by others. It’s incredibly easy to peel off a massive chunk of this population and get them to start blaming the government, society broadly, science, knowledge, literally anything but their own need to improve their social skills and gain some emotional intelligence.
These are our dumbest, angriest, loudest men, and thus become the major influencing factor on their peers, online and off. They set the tone and everyone else just kind of goes along with it, or leaves them to grow and gain power in peace.
This shit is why I think regular therapy sessions should be a mandatory part of high school for everyone. Kids need better tools to deal with the shit they’re going through.
A few old-fashioned morons go a parent-teacher meeting and scream “We never had all this psychotherapy bullshit when I was a kid!” And everyone mummers to each other that yeah, we can’t impose our reason-based evaluation of reality on someone else’s ignorance, that wouldn’t be American!
Then their kid goes back to school the next day and continues to inflict a lifes with of trauma on their peers.
i did. saw it in 2016 and had a hunch before that.
the only thing that shocks me anymore is how naive most of you are.
As a man, it’s also reasonable to say this is nearly non existent among women. Does it happen? Of course. But not nearly to the scale it happens among men.
It’s moreso a matter of semantics. If someone says “Men are disgusting”, you don’t have to take it literally. It’s conveying the meaning that there is a large enough amount of men that are doing this that it is a massive problem in nearly every woman’s life. The saying would be a bit less valid if it was so extremely prevalent. But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
So sure, with as many people as there are, it’s “bound to pop up” but saying it that way seems to undermine just how prevalent it is. And correcting a statement that expresses the sentiment that this is a large problem by saying “But not all men are bad” is counterproductive. They are talking about the systematic issue among men. You could instead respond with “Yea, we need systematic changes” or something along the lines that address the concern they are raising.
But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
Thats’s most certainly accurate, since in the US, 1 in 5 women have been raped over the course of their lives.
So, Sexual harassment would be far more likely. I’d guess, 4 in 5 women, if not 5 outta 5.
When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned. I don’t disagree that there are systemic problems but I think that they were focusing on a specific and small subset of a larger problem.
I might be wrong about this, correct me if that’s so. but because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
It’s much muddier than that. Most cases of rape are someone the victim trusted. And most of those cases don’t ever get reported to authorities. So there are many men may have taken advantage of a woman, and that woman see’s him as an abuser, but nearly nobody in that mans life even knows about this. The victim may stay silent for any number of reasons. There are almost definitely cases like that involving men you know, but are unaware of what they did. As for the solution to these cases? Societal norms need to change. Consent needs to be required every time no matter what. There should never be pressure for sex, and peers should not encourage pressuring a woman into sex. Instead, the man will say the person stepping in is “cock blocking” when in reality they’re defending someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them. Men will back up other men in an attempt to help their bro “get their dick wet”. They will get women drunk in hopes they will have reduced inhibitions, or perhaps so drunk they don’t even remember the night. This is not as simple as “lock up the bad guys” when very few cases of rape involve being snatched up off the street.
When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned.
Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying. I do still disagree that groups like that are bound to pop up, at least not as much as they are right now. I think womanizing groups are far more common than dedicated racist groups online. Racism has taken a massive downward trend over the last hundred years. Of course, it is not fixed, very far from it. But I also think it is undeniable that racism is less of a problem than it was 50 years ago. That is the kind of societal change we want. If the internet were around 50 years ago, the insane number of group chats dedicated to racism would have been far larger than they are now. Bringing awareness to these issues, and especially men standing up to other men, is what will help bring a decline to the number of vocal sexist pigs and their echo chambers.
It’s the same as everywhere, those who scream the loudest get heard
Any decent man who has spent enough time in locker rooms understands that ~30% of men are shitty people and of those, somewhere around half are probably violent.
Once you have a daughter or put youraself in womens shoes, you realize how terrifying those odds are for women trying to navigate this world.
This is why when my daughter announced she was gay, I was absolutely thrilled. She gets to go on this new journey with the part of humanity that 1) can’t cause a teen pregnancy and 2) much less abusive
The study that statistic comes from is seriously methodologically flawed.
The statistic is that lesbians are more likely to have experienced abuse in previous heterosexual relationships. These are lifetime prevalence rates.
Or might just have reported more vs others, which idk but would be similar to e.g. sexual violence statistics in Scandinavian countries where officially they have much more harassment etc. than other countries, but this is just because women are more encouraged to actually go to the police and report it.
I also believe different countries count differently.
Some countries only count a victim once if it occurs in the same relationship. Some count by actual individual act of abuse.
I can’t be bothered to read the paper, but here are some evergreens that make this result hard to interpret:
- The sample includes women from all ages and boomer Karens would not report abuse
- On the other hand, being bi or lesbian has only been accepted by society since the last 10-20 years. Don’t believe me? Just watch some 90s sitcom like Friends.
- Being bi or lesbian still comes together with a special type of discrimination that a straight woman most likely will never experience; hence, straight women are potentially less sensitized to abuse / might have a different bar for what they consider abuse
- Putting together these very different groups of people with very different experiences on what is “normal” will result in them having a very different sensitivity towards what they would consider abuse
- In other words a young, bi/lesbian woman is probably more likely to report abuse than an old straight woman, an old lesbian woman who is just happy might never engage with researchers because of the past societal stigma that makes her keep her life private
Of course we don’t know any of that, but these psychological studies are difficult to conduct because in theory you’d have to account for these effects and in practice that might be impossible. But again, I haven’t bothered to read the whole thing just to prove a point.
Well, you’re really just throwing out what-ifs. But you happened to chance on one theory that some researchers think could partially explain the discrepancy:
Being bi or lesbian still comes together with a special type of discrimination that a straight woman most likely will never experience;
Being oppressed causes stress, stress causes lack of control. The idea is it’s a similar driver to why poorer couples have higher rates of abuse.
That’s probably not the SOLE cause, but it’s likely a factor.
I think it’s good that you’re trying to back your claims by sources / papers but your response tells me that you’re not trained (yet) in reading papers critically. Those are just some random question that came up from the top of my head and that any scientist would ask if someone were to present the findings of this study at a conference. This kind of rigor, to not blindly accept results but to critically evaluate them and poke holes in the arguments is what makes academia academia. I’m kind of surprised that you throw around papers and then get offended if people don’t blindly accept whatever you say, it’s kind of an interesting appeal to authority fallacy.
The numbers are pretty much a consensus among researchers. If you disagree, then the burden is on YOU to do a deep, critical analysis. I’m just reporting the conclusions of others, not doing any critical analysis. If those conclusions make you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should explore that feeling more. Although if you want to do a critical analysis, I’d welcome it.
Let me know how those mid terms went freshman! I know it’s exciting to be at university and all but you should learn to read the room
God I hate that you are right. I only have like one male friend because I legit had to distance myself from ao many other male friends who were just horrible people and I couldn’t stand to listen to them anymore.
Similar experience. Had a best friend who kept saying more and more misogynistic bs. After he said: “I could rape you, yoo know. And you wouldn’t be able to stop me.”
Over time, I made a munch of male friends who are awesome. Nothing beats binge watching the Owlhouse with the bro’s. Or a drunk pillow fight. Or a boat trip. They are fun. One friend is the kindest, humblest dude I ever met. I view him as a role model if anything. I’m also friends with a war veteran, and he is a kind guy who loves to train dogs and people.
It’s hard to find these people though. Most men don’t want friendships with women. They just fuckzone em.
This is 100% correct. I have 4 daughters myself and an amazing wife. I see it almost daily. In the current landscape, it’s even harder. My older female family members don’t even care. They “got theirs” and could give a shit about women growing up in this world.
I will always defend women, and I patiently wait for the day a woman in my presence gets disrespected by some Chad, Andrew Tate loving motherfucker.
I’m here for all my human sisters, as we should all be equal on this planet. Fuck these men with no morals and no human equality compass. Scared of something they don’t understand or what incels tell them to act like. Its madness and makes me sick.
What places do you go? My pool is super chill, I have seen all kind of uplifting moments. Maybe certain gyms have a selection bias? I don’t know.
I was thinking high school locker room when I read it. Cause it fit my experience there.
I played hockey in high school and that was my experience too. Insanely toxic attitudes towards women. Yet we elevate these assholes because at least in the US we still value athletics in men more than anything else.
I got beat and blooded multiple times in highschool locker rooms. I’d estimate a lot higher than 30% of people are the issue.
Oh, I guess different school systems, so that didn’t even come to mind to me. At least in my country high school is from 15 to 19, I think lots of people thankfully mature and change after teenage years.
Same ages in the US. But not much maturing in HS.
That just seems… Insane? My experience certainly doesn’t reflect this. But I never do averages based on a sample size of one.
~30% of people being shitty tracks with voting patterns
I like that this can condemn either side
My experience certainly does.
I’ve worked with some really great people. But maybe 1 in 5 or so was a loudmouthed shitbag, and when you called them on being shitty, they either threatened you, or acted like it was all a joke or a big misunderstanding, and you were at fault for being upset, etc. I can’t guarantee that the shitty people I’ve known have harassed women, but the probability seems high.
You aren’t a shitty person so you’re less likely to be around shitty people, just like you’re more likely to be around people roughly your age on a daily basis and not around the elderly despite their sizable population.
1 in 7 people roughly are Chinese, but that doesn’t mean 1 in 7 people I interact with daily are Chinese.
If anyone is unsure why women would chose the bear…
Most young men and women choose not to date. “Choosing the bear” isn’t limited to one gender. And yes, I understand it, at least partially. It’s rough out there.
Social division as a result of people not socializing anymore has driven a massive wedge between the diverse and beautiful spectrum of people who used to find appreciation and joy in each others differences.
Now every time you meet someone with different feelings than yourself, the internet has trained you to feel attacked.
This is why we’re all alone, we’re afraid of being attacked, and somehow our definitions of what an attack is has been radically subverted.
Davies was contacted by seven men over seven days who had all been scammed or catfished by seven different fake accounts that were using her images. She wrote an Instagram post to warn others and a BBC journalist got in touch, leading to her first documentary When Nudes Are Stolen. This was life-changing. “It was the first time that I had sat down with campaigners and experts who laid all those images out and said that what happened to me wasn’t OK,” she says. “No one had ever said that before. No one had ever said: ‘It wasn’t your fault.’ It was such a moment for me. It lifted the weight off my shoulders.”
Good Lord, that’s depressing. When people take advantage of you, it’s not your fault. What is this world doing to people?
I think part of why she didn’t seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don’t even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
The good men aren’t there and don’t even know what’s going on. I’ve used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
If you happened to go in there and speak against them, you’d just be banned and have your post removed.
Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. “Calling out” is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
They explicitly don’t want us non-shitty men there to harsh their vibe and will refuse to listen, so yeah, what the fuck are we supposed to do?
If I see it happening IRL I shut it down and use my 6’4" powers to look down at whoever’s doing it and give them a good scare, but I’m not gonna go to the fucking incel forums and make my day worse for no goddamn reason
Right. In real life you can look someone in the eye and see some semblance of humanity (or at least fear). Online, it doesn’t matter what you say or how you’re perceived, because people get to hide in their perceived anonymity. And you never know when some psychopath with no morals or sense of decency is going to have you swatted.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
Precisely. It’s completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.
Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. “Calling out” people in such places wouldn’t be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).
Basically it would be at most a performance.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community …
Me too, both. That we have responsibility for others and that we are not obliged to put ourselves at harms risk.
But this is a particularly shitty, maybe wicked problem. There are three groups: A bullies B, and C could stop A, but isn’t bothered by anyone. Now, is C obliged to pick a fight with A, or is B just in bad luck to be born as a B?
I think here, it is very easy to have strong opinions, while very hard to formulate a concise moral argument. Things get muddier/harder the more we factor reality in.
What’s the point of wrestling with a pig? You both get muddy, and the pig likes it.
Maybe it’s because I grew up with the old, “mean” internet, but my response to communities full of trash is to leave them alone and let the blind lead the blind. Seriously, what the hell is arguing with them going to do? They expect to be challenged, they will not see reason, they will not suffer to be helped, and you are not going to be the person who changes that.IDK, instead of picking fights with random fucks in their own echo chambers where I’d just get banned anyway, I strive to be a positive example for the youngins around me in real life.
Right. As a guy, I’ve never received a nude pic of a girl from a friend. I’ve never had a friend tell me that he sends girls dick pics. I’ve never been in an online community where photos of women are traded like what is described above - I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for this. I’ve never heard about anyone I know having their pictures shared, or anyone I know sharing pictures of someone else in an unethical way. This is quite simply a social sphere that I am completely excluded from. The idea that I have any responsibility or capacity to police this kind of behavior is ludicrous - what am I supposed to do? Talk to my friends and say “So, look at any unethical porn lately, bro?” Or spend my time seeking out toxic communities so I can debate them/report them, instead of going outside and having a life?
“I’ve never had a friend tell me he sends girls dick pics” Well he wouldn’t, would he? They know it’s toxic behavior even though they enjoy doing it and might even brag about it with equally toxic guys. This is a problem women constantly have, the men in their lives don’t believe things are happening because it doesn’t happen when they’re there. It’s a far less niche sphere than it appears to you, and I agree it’s probably not going to be out in front of you for you to do something about. But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so. So if they do, they’re probably not lying or imagining it. Even if your experience of that guy is completely different. And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
I don’t think their intention was to shut anything down and or about not believing women.
It seemed like the user your responding to was expressing frustration over the portion of the excerpt that implies it’s the fault of all men for not calling this out when there’s a lot of men who don’t ever encounter this directly to call it out like that.
But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so.
Ideally I wouldn’t assume anything based on such broad generalities. I would base my understanding on my understanding of the person making the claim. If the woman making the claim has shown tendencies in the past of lying and starting drama, I will likely do nothing, and will sort of quietly wander away to find another conversation because I don’t want to be involved in whatever shit she is starting now. Though I will also probably never be present for this conversation, since I probably would have removed this person from my life a long time ago and would actively avoid interacting with them, because it is an unpleasant experience. If I know the woman to generally be trustworthy and straightforward, I will say “wow, that sucks, let me know if I can do anything to help you feel better”.
I’ve known several women who confessed to me that they’d been sexually assaulted in the past. My response, more or less, was “wow, I’m sorry that happened to you. Let me know if you want to talk about it more, or if there is anything I can do to help.” And that is the extent of what I can do, since I have no idea who the people who assaulted them are. It’s not like I can just bust down some random guy’s door and beat him up.
And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
Such as…? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I assume you are talking about the conversations where guys say things like “no means yes, yes means anal” - which, again, I have never, ever been involved in. Like, ever. I don’t know who these people are or where they hang out. I infer they exist based on second hand accounts if others. But they seem to not like me, and don’t invite me to their parties.
When my male friends and I talk about women, our conversations usually go: ugh, why don’t girls like me?; ugh, my girlfriend is being distant and standoffish; ugh, my girlfriend broke up with me. I’ve never had a friend speak poorly of women in general, say they “deserve” anything as a group, or anything like that.
So, again, this seems like a big case of “I can’t do anything about this, so I’m not going to worry about it.”
Additionally, those kinds of shitbags routinely get tossed out of respectable places. What brings the manosphere, and things like it, together is usually a shared experience of rejection and isolation.
Instagrams algorithm purposely pits extreme opposing view points against each other to drive engagement via hate comments to sell enraged consumers knickknacks and graphic T-shirts.
Christian vs atheist
Red vs blue
Abortion vs choice
Even vegan vs carnivore
The faster we abandon social media sites the better.
Yup. I’m not going to actively hang out with shitheads just to try and change them. I will however steamroll over them if they come into MY space and do it.
I explicitly stay away from such groups. I call it out in person, and politely check my friends when they say something that they might not realize is harmful, exactly the same way I expect them to check me, but that’s just it. That kind of discourse isn’t welcome in these groups because they were created with one explicit purpose: to justify and normalize the absolute shittiest behavioursof the most sexiest of male culture.
She’s right, it isn’t a small amount of men. But it’s a supermajority in certain circles, and a tiny, neglible minority in others. She, unfortunately, exposed herself to the worst of men enmasse. We should instead go to those latter circles, and avoid/ostracize those former circles, until they realize if their only goal is sex, they’ll have to figure out how to be a decent person first. And men, choose to be better.
Guys seem to like going into a game together and fighting against overwhelming odds, working together to shoot down the enemy. Even if they “die” several times.
Maybe it would be interesting to get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap.
You’d be banned faster than trying to say “Tiananmen” on grad
r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being “brigaded” by bots or whatever
Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.
By yourself probably not. But a battalion of opposing arguments could possibly turn the tide. These guys have already demonstrated how susceptible they are to peer pressure, after all. And they’re not all online at once, so if they’re suddenly in the minority in their usually toxic forum…
So you need a coordinated effort of thousands of people who will get continuously moderated, banned or censored. OK, I admit that it’s possible, but I think I’d rather invest my time in other ways…
Well, if you have some to invest, could you see about getting “i.e.” into the default autocorrect database so we don’t have to go back and force it every time?
get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap
Such behaviour is called “brigading” and it’s very much frowned upon.
We should weaponize bots to do this. With AI it doesn’t even need to be real people anymore.
They’re using them against us and it’s long past time we responded in kind.
Then good news! There are people doing this. I’m in a discord where some people work on a bot that basically calls out that stuff on reddit. Making the bot is straightforward, the problem is it keeps getting banned for arguing. The hardest part is keeping the reddit account alive.
