I could use some help with this one folks.
So, im invited camping for several days. My friend p1 inviting me is transmasc, he and his boyfriend p2 (cis) are going. P1 invited another of his friends p3 (likely cis) who i dont know, and his gf p4 (likely cis) is coming along because shes connected to p3 (p1 has never met her). P1 also invited p5 and p6, both cis men. Im the only woman who was explicitly invited, and most likely the only trans woman to be there.
Im really worried and concerned that i will be degendered at first (ill show up with a clean face, done hair, all femme-y) but as my shadow shows up (were camping so i cant shave) and my hair gets fucked up i worry ill be treated as a guy (esp because im like 195cm). I dont think ill be explicitly misgendered, but that kinda makes it worse? Like, when people treat me as a guy without using explicit language it makes it harder to call out.
And this is where i want help… I dont even know how to quantify and qualify the way people degender me or treat me as a guy without misgendering me. And i cant bring this up without doing that for people (men especially) because they dont understand it on an intimate level. Like, every woman, trans or cis, that ive talked about this with has understood on an intuitive level what im talking about. The trans women really get it, and the cis women understand the social experience of being the only woman in a group of men. They dont ask for clarification, they dont demand i tell them exactly what the men are doing and why its bad, they dont require me to do emotional labor for them. Men in my life, cis or trans, tend to want that labor done for them. They dont understand. And when i call out specific behavior (e.g. saying that “hey man/dude” isnt gender neutral) they get defensive and i have to manage their emotions for them (or another woman does), and once theyve calmed down i have to explain why its wrong. And heaven forbid i mention that misandry doesnt exist, then they get really upset.
So, how do i even quantify and qualify the ways this happens? Its so subtle and i suck at subtext. To me its just a vibe, and telling men that their actions are degendering me or treating me as a man without laying out explicitly how they are doing that will only result in them getting angry at me and digging in their heels. How do i explain this to people?
Sorry, why can’t you shave while camping? Here are some tips to help out on that end.
Regarding the way being degendered feels, men experience gender policing by having their masculinity questioned or stripped from them, basically to be compared to a woman is how they are degendered or dehumanized using gender. They won’t understand your exact experiences, because they won’t understand wanting to be a woman, but for men being treated like a sissy or as a woman is the way they would feel degendered or dehumanized - how would they feel if a woman held a door open for them? How would they feel if someone took over what they were doing because they were perceived to be weak or incompetent (like opening a jar)? And so on.
It still isn’t the same, but that might be the closest analogy. As you point out, the situation for men is not the same as for women (cis or trans), and they won’t have the same kinds of experiences.
shaving
Thank you for the linky! Idk why i assumed i couldnt shave, i just have my specific routine for shaving and cant do other aspects of it (e.g. a proper shower) and i guess i extended that to every aspect of it.
And i get what youre saying on mens degendering, but like, they wont listen to me and will get upset if i say theyre degendering me without laying out explicitly how they are doing that, in a way that is understandable to them. But tying it back to how men are degendered is useful, ty.
rant
I dont want to do that labour but i guess i have to. It sucks. I have some “precompiled” explanations (e.g. about the usage of man/dude as a so called gender neutral term when its anything but), but i cant predict what they will do/say and i suck at thinking on my feet (especially while being yelled at or talked over or heavily implied to be “crazy” or “stupid”). Idk. I just wish i wasnt the only trans woman there. And I dont feel like i can count on solidarity from a cis woman ive never met… I mean, tons of cis women love to call me homophobic slurs and treat me like a freakshow lol, its part and parcel of their bargaining with misogyny.
I do think sometimes if you want to be understood, doing work towards being understood might be required, though I hear you that it can be unfair. But you don’t have to do it, and you don’t have to go camping with a bunch of dudes. Honestly I’m not sure I would be comfortable as a woman going on that trip, myself …
However, even if you decide it’s worth going on the trip, and worth trying to explain your feelings, I think it partially depends on them being invested in understanding you and wanting to accommodate your feelings - and that’s not guaranteed either, esp. since some of these people are strangers to you.
Either way, this issue isn’t necessarily as technical or narrow as you start with, i.e. it’s not just a problem of how understandable your experiences are, there is a larger context about not being able to perfectly control all the variables of how other people think and feel - there is a social context you are working within. In my experience, most people will want to be polite, but most people will not find it easy to think about you in the right ways, and so those subtle ways of feeling invalidated will slip through, even by accident.
This is part of why I work so hard to pass, and why I don’t like spending time around people who knew me before transition - because new people just see a woman now while people who knew me before will always at best see a “trans woman”. Even worse, I degender myself around people who knew me before, I slip into old patterns of behavior of how I acted around them when I lived as a man. It’s the worst.
Anyway, don’t go camping if you don’t want to, you have plenty of reasons to feel uncomfortable. Don’t have these conversations if you don’t want to, it’s not your job and it may or may not help. Choose your battles, I guess.
depends on them being invested in understanding you and wanting to accommodate your feelings
This is also a whole thing, cause p1 can be… Rather invalidating… He has his way of seeing the world and thats the correct way and he will talk over you and shout you down if you talk back about it. And like, for example he doesnt think everyone should be nonbinary but he does think that noone should “try” to pass and should just exist as they are and like, that just doesnt fucking work that way and he wont listen about that so why would he listen to me about this yk? At least, thats my thought process…
In my experience, most people will want to be polite, but most people will not find it easy to think about you in the right ways, and so those subtle ways of feeling invalidated will slip through, even by accident.
This is my experience as well. And as i get less “presentable” (e.g. hair, BO, etc) it gets harder for people to view me correctly.
Unfortunately passing isnt in the cards for me (i dont think? Im not in peoples heads lol) just cause im 195cm tall and kinda jowly in the face and have a very large ribcage/shoulders. Like, i have hips/waist. It just immediately flairs out into my ribcage in an intense manner.
Even worse, I degender myself around people who knew me before, I slip into old patterns of behavior of how I acted around them when I lived as a man. It’s the worst.
Ugh i hate this so much, and it also comes into play because p1 and p5 both knew me since i was a child…
I should really get back into makeup. I used to have an alright nude-adjacent look that worked for me, and people treated me better when i had some eyeliner on… Even tho its expensive and takes so much time to get right every day lol.
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Camping? Just wear a hatchet on your belt and correct people gently. Once.
I do have a hatchet…
have you asked p1 if these other people are cool? maybe there’s not actually a problem here (hopium), or maybe he’d rather disinvite 5 and 6 because you’re more important.
I dont want him to uninvite people just cause of me, i just wish i wasnt the only woman explicitly invited… And also, p1 is kinda the person im most worried about… I dont want to have an argument about the finer points of transmisogyny with a transmasc who hasnt exactly been open to criticism about his misogyny in the past, and has been very dismissive about it, and about like concerns about passing, etc… Idk, just the fact that im the only woman explicitly invited has kinda got in my head about like “wait does p1 view me as a secret-third-thing (thats man adjacent) and not a woman?”…
oh dang that’s a pile of yikes.
Yeah… I feel like i could be very wrong and everything will be fine. But perhaps the more concerning part is that i feel like i cant have a direct dialog with p1 about any of this, like he will just shut everything down and get angry with me if i try to bring it up…
also since p1 is also trans, there might be more sympathy about gender with him and that discussion could become a launching point for future concerns? Good for someone to have your back and to be filled in on the context before it becomes a problem with his buddies.
