Lemmygrad is a collection of Marxist communities, for memes, learning, news, discussion, media, or anything you like.
There’s a big chance that your instance blocks Lemmygrad, so the best way to interact with the community is either joining there or creating an account on an instance that doesn’t blocks us. You can check this on the instaces section of your instance. This is what it looks like for Lemmy, but you can basically add /instances to the URL and it will take you there.
Due to the huge influx of users after the Reddit debacle Lemmygrad got a lot of account requests so it takes time for approval, be patient.
Can you come up with the actual primary source? You run the manufacturing consent comm, you should know the difference between primary and secondary sources. Especially when it pertains to China and the resistance.
China and Russia vetoing would not have changed the material outcome. UNSC decisions have never once prevented the US Empire from doing what it already decided. China’s and Russia’s abstention and drafting of an alternative plan while condmening the US plan is in line with Hamas’s requests, and not vetoing the plan is in line with the PLO’s requests (as the PA). China is not the soviet union, it doesn’t play kingmaker, for better and worse, and this same non-interference policy broadly is why they are far preferred over the US Empire and its active genocidal interference.
Launching a crusade against people contextualizing China’s decision is counter-productive wrecker behavior that goes well beyond meaningful critique and straight into “left” anti-communism, and that’s highlighted by you never once actually responding to any points you’ve recieved from Marxists. You just respond with images of twitter threads, it’s insulting. I’m disappointed.
The primary source is mentioned, Aljazeera. Dropsite is more than trustworthy enough when it comes to Palestine. They do some of the best reporting we have pertaining it.
I don’t think you understand just how bad the resolution is. It’s literally the international rubber stamp of approval for the entire Israeli genocide. It states that an international force will go into Gaza to disarm the Palestinian resistance, and it explicitly endorses that Israel can keep colonizing Gaza until the resistance is disarmed. You can read it here, especially #7 https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/full-text-us-resolution-gaza-approved-un-security-council
Russia and China even had a big mouth about how bad the resolution was and then let it pass. They can choose to give up their UNSC veto rights if they believe that “it means nothing”. China and Russia are crucial part of the UN Imperialist council and have given their support blessings to Israel to colonize Palestine.
Can’t find anything from Aljazeera claiming Hamas specifically requested Russia and China veto the plan, only Hamas condemning the plan, which is obvious as it’s a genocidal colonial project. The closest I can find is saying that the plan nominally declares that the PA has authority over Gaza, which they were optimistic about, though that may not have been from Hamas specifically as there were other mesdages mixed in, and that ultimately they don’t believe the PA will really get any authority.
I’m aware that the plan is genocidal and colonial in nature. It’s terrible, disgustingly so, and not a single person I’ve seen has tried to convince you otherwise. I even explained how it’s likely worse than you think. What I asked, was why you think China or Russia vetoing it would stop it, as no UNSC decision has ever stopped the US Empire from doing what it wants. Adding onto this, the US stated that any veto would result in a “return to war,” ie a return to genocide on an expanded scale.
Again, I have a good deal of respect for you as someone normally with good political instincts and an anti-imperialist stance, but the problem with relying on instincts is that you sometimes overcompensate and misattribute blame. The UNSC is theater. It isn’t a real council, what matters is economic control and millitary projection, and the US and gulf states have far more of that than Russia and China do in the region.
I hope you can at least consider what I say with some degree of respect, I figure I’m owed at least that much after I’ve consistently proven myself to be firmly anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian for years, even pre-Al Aqsa Flood.
Here’s the link. Auto-translated subtitles from what I skimmed showed a pretty fierce condemnation of the proposal.
Thanks, that’s better. I see condemnation of the horrible genocidal plan, yes, but no requests to China and Russia to veto it, which leads back to my core point: China’s foreign policy relies on respecting the sovereignty of states, not groups within states. When groups in MENA like Algeria back the plan, the PA backs the plan, and the US threatens to heighten the genocide if the deal isn’t backed, then China’s hand is extremely limited. Vetoing means the US gets a free excuse to cancel the already farcical ceasefire and ramp up the genocide in order to carry out the plan anyways.
China and Russia breaking precedent and picking Hamas over the PA opens the door to the US backing seperatist groups in Taiwan in UNSC resolutions, ramp up the trade war, and more. Vetoing the plan wouldn’t meaningfully stop the plan, it would give free excuses to the US to abolish the already farcical “ceasefire,” which was their open threat at the table prior to voting. China and Russia condemning the plan, drafting an alternate resolution, and trying their best to appease both Hamas and the PA led them to abstention.
Following the resolution, I have yet to see resistance groups specifically call out China and Russia, only condemning the UNSC plan and resolution. People highlighting the 2 that abstained over the dozen that voted gleefully for the plan and the countries that plan on actively participating and facilitating it are missing the core of the issue, the US Empire, Israel, and Europe.
*MTL
This is a case where I don’t really think machine translation does it justice, but taking the translation at its word:
We have a few key problems here. The resolution that was drafted obviously does not protect the Palestinian people from aggression, and the alternative drafted by Russia and China is not being accepted by the western powers. Despite China and Russia’s efforts to change the resolution, including alternate proposals, the resolution that was decided by the western powers was what was voted on.
Secondly, Hamas requested that they hoped what they and other factions submitted would be considered in the vote, and that is exactly what happened. The PA supported the resolution, and yet China and Russia did not vote to pass it. Instead, countries like Algeria voted for it alongside the US.
Third, is the protection from genocide line. The US opened the talks with threats of heightened genocide should the resolution be vetoed. This isn’t an empty threat. The US made it clear, either they will bomb the shit out of Palestine, or they will proceed with the plan. Returning to point 1, the alternatives presented by China and Russia were denied, and the draft was rushed.
In short, a veto would have resulted in escalated conflict, a vote for would have resulted in full acceptance and a commitment to the colonial project, and an abstention would have resulted in the resolution passing but with the express disapproval of China and Russia, alongside their soon to come alternative propositions. China and Russia maintain the position of the two state solution and China in particular has stated that Palestine must be governed by Palestinians, and is willing to step in and make that happen if consensus among those in charge of Palestine is reached.
There was no easy, correct answer given the requests from MENA countries and PA, and the threats of the US to escalate the genocide after a hard fought ceasefire, however weak, was reached.
‘Other factions’ here refers to PIJ and other Palestinian resistance factions, not the PA.
I’ve answered every single statement you made multiple times over the past few days, with people on Lemmygrad being unable to do anything except call it ‘trolling’ and banning me. Which is why I respond more and more annoyed and assuming I’m with people who are bad faith.
For almost everyone else I’d just post a Twitter screenshot but I’m going to make an exception for you in the hopes you’re arguing in good-faith and not just blindly advocating for anything China does.
The Dropsite Tweet contains Arabic text without any translation so I’m assuming it’s the Arabic Aljazeera. English Aljazeera is extremely tame and tries to pander to a Western audience. For example you can find Aljazeera posting full Hamas combat videos on their Arabic Youtube channel, it’s pretty wild. Dropsite has multiple Arabic and even local Palestinians on their reporting team gathering this info. Seeing how bad the UN resolution is, the Dropsite tweet looks very credible. If that’s really all your concern I could look up whether it’s real but if it’s not going to change your mind I’m not going to waste my time on it.
This is not about whether China or Russia can stop it. It’s whether they endorse it. The reason people recognize Israel’s borders where it is, is because the United Imperialists in 1948 voted to steal half of Palestine and give it to European colonists. The reason the UN is seen as a toothless tiger is because every time a controversial resolution heavily favoring one side is introduced, it is vetoed by the other party. Except now. I would urge you to directly stop quoting any other Arab Zionist country. Everyone has known long before this week that they are Western aligned and quoting them as if they have any say over the Palestinians is extremely imperialistic. This tweet really does describe that better than I ever could
As for the “return to war”, Israel bombed and killed more than 25 Palestinians right after the resolution passed. To the surprise of no-one.
The only thing China and Russia have done is fully normalize the genocide which they pretended to be against for 2 years and publicly announce that they believe the IDF has the right to colonize Gaza because we both know the resistance isn’t disarming. And even if it would, the IDF would claim a false flag rocket and stay there anyways. This resolution does nothing for Palesitinians except the entire United Imperialists endorsing the genocide, and collectively agreeing to reward Israel for committing genocide for two entire years, while Israel is actively violating the current ceasefire
China also wouldn’t lose face by opposing this Zionist resolution, they would save face. The resolution contained many easy points of opposition. For example it doesn’t include a Palestinian state at all. It only serves Israel, which is already saying the quiet part out loud, they’re not going to give Palestinians a state even if the resistance would be disarmed (just look at the West Bank to find out what happens if they disarm anyway).
This is the mask off moment for many people to show whether they truly support Palestinians because they oppose imperialism and oppression (if you think I’m an ‘anti-imperialist’ then any “true marxist-leninist” should go way harder on this than me, I’m sure you know the ML position on imperialism). Or whether they were simply ML cosplayers who only supported Palestine because it used to be the official Chinese position, which is now no longer valid, but they have bound their entire identity to supporting China and therefore cannot mentally deal with the contradictions (similar to showing a ‘progressive’ that AOC is a Zionist but they just keep coping).
For starters, I appreciate that you at least are responding to me. I hope you understand that more than most, I try to maintain good-faith. I know that your intentions are in the right place, which is why I am trying to reach out rather than just sit out.
You were given numerous lengthy responses, and then you answered them with quips and tweets. That’s what got you labeled a wrecker more than someone legitimately criticizing China’s position. I understand that you weren’t trying to troll, but at the same time I understand why they recieved it that way, many people met your energy with lengthy comments explaining their positions and you didn’t respond in kind.
Regarding the dropsite tweet, it looks like deceptichum found a more direct source. It’s machine translated though. I responded to it there, it seems the interviewer was trying to directly ask if Hamas asked Russia and China to veto, while Hamdan responded in a manner that almost dodges that point, instead directly calling for a better resolution (which China and Russia are drafting) as well as prevention of a return to the all-out genocide as compared to the “slower” genocide of the post-“ceasefire” resolution.
This isn’t the case, though. China released explanations for their abstention here. They aren’t endorsing the resolution, they maintain that it’s an awful resolution and that a better alternative needs to be drafted, per the requests of resistance groups. The PRC’s stance has always been for factional unity within the PLO. Here’s an excerpt from the above link:
Considering the US threatened to escalate if the resolution was vetoed, and that China and Russia have no way to oppose it millitarily in the region, China picked abstention, consistent with their historical stance of siding with the PLO and opting for stability over returning to the heights of the war. Full sovereignty includes armament.
The UN isn’t seen as toothless because of how votes go and are vetod, the UN is toothless because the resolutions do not matter. Words on paper mean nothing to the genocidal US Empire, that’s why the ceasefire is already being violated. What matters is economic and millitary might, and in this instance the US and the comprador countries have full supremacy over the region.
I’m well aware of the ML stance on imperialism. Russia and China are not imperializing Palestine. Their passive anti-imperialism can absolutely be critiqued. I personally would want China to be more directly interventionist in Palestine. I understand them being wary after regular fuck ups in the latter 20th century, and I understand the risks, you yourself mentioned that you understand China not wanting trade to be used against them.
My driving point is that there is a difference between disappointment with and critique of China, and completely flipping around and equating them to the actual perpetrators of colonization. The ones who directly endorsed the plan were the 13 members who voted for it, and the ones responsible for the colonization are the UK, France, Israel, Germany, the US, Italy, every country directly involved. This misattribution gives ammo to liberals that attack China as imperialist anyways, weakening the ability for China to succeed in establishing Palestinian statehood with which they can use not as a permanent two state solution, but as a lever to pull in supporting the Palestinian cause.
Numerous bad responses full of either lies or justifications for Chinese imperialism. As I said before, I will not take people seriously who argue similarly to Kamala Harris fans and tell me that
HarrisChina needs to support Israel because it’s convenient toHarrisChinaSo why are we arguing on the internet? If words mean nothing and have no effect why do we even use words? The answer is that words do mean something. The UN is used as a public show of hands for countries to show their stances and whom they support in the world. Words like Casus Beli exist for a reason. Now Israel can claim international legitimacy to keep their Nazi soldiers in Gaza, and probably build settlements there soon.
They have a seat with veto rights at the UNSC. Once again, they can give up their seat if they want to pretend to be neutral powerless babies. Abstaining is a hypocritical vote in favor. China and Russia both know very well their abstention means it will pass the vote. Don’t use this argument to defend them I regard it as incredibly bad faith. China is a critical member on the UNSC. They passed this resolution so they should stand behind it with pride. They already know their ‘alternative’ draft is going to get vetoed by the US. Why would the US let this pass? Either I’m severely overlooking something here or this is just a bad faith red herring against people who don’t know how the UNSC voting works.
…So? The US and Israel say they’re going to escalate every single day. Trump said he was going to flatten Gaza the day he came to power. The difference is that now the genocide has China’s blessing. I even provided you with the example of Israel instantly violating the UNSC resolution and committing a massacare on 25 Palestinians. They don’t care about it. The only thing China and Russia did was give Israel international approval for the genocide.
We both know that this sham imperialist UN force will in no way stabilize the region. The only way to stabilize it is by removing the destabilizzing force. Which is done with armed resistance.
Good. It’s not a misattribution. China is endorsing a the genocide of Palestinians as a bargaining chip for their own gain. They got Nexperia back the very next day. Nothing you have said shows in any way that China is serious about the Palestinian cause. They are increasing trade with Israel and building out Israeli infrastructure, even building colonist settlements in the West Bank.
Why count on China to do the right thing when they have just proven to do the wrong thing? If people don’t push back against that, you can bet China will keep doing it. If China wants to earn back that trust they should start showing some serious dedication to Palestine. This exactly the argument DNC libs used during the election. “Yes Kamala is firmly on the side of Israel, but it’s only because she needs to to get elected. We need to support her now and she will do better when she gets in power. She is the lesser evil and we shouldn’t criticize her”.
Unless you have a very compelling reply which isn’t just an excuse why it’s okay when China does imperialism, this will be my last response here or I will respond with a Twitter post which says basically the same thing.
This is why you are being labeled a wrecker. China abstaining and trying to abide by both the PLO and resistance groups, who I might add already agreed on the PLO as the national authority for international representation, is not imperialism. You might say that it’s weak anti-imperialism, but it is by no means imperialism proper.
Secondly, arguing on the internet is all we can do, other than organize in real life to undermine western support for Israel. My hope is that I can convince you to reframe your analysis from “China is imperialist and therefore must be destroyed” into “China is being insufficiently anti-imperialist.” It sounds like you believe the latter, but you call them imperialist, giving liberals ammo rather than providing actual leftist critique.
China isn’t standing behind the resolution with pride, because it disagrees with the resolution. Since you value words greatly, read their full statement.
Agreed. So does China.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense and you have nothing to back it up other than that it aligns with how you presently feel.
The 2024 Beijing Declaration reconciled Hamas and Fatah, and created a unified resistance in Palestine, along with support from China and an understanding that Palestinian statehood is a necessity and disarmament an impossibility.
This is bad, I agree! They are also working with resistance groups and trying to form a Palestinian state. I would say this is an example of China being insufficiently anti-imperialist, not equal to the US and EU who have been arming the IDF.
You haven’t given any examples of China doing imperialism. You’ve given good reasons to critique China for not being sufficiently anti-imperialist. The reason the distinction is important is because the assumption that China is imperialist means it cannot be reformed, and must be destroyed, whereas if China is insufficiently anti-imperialist, corrective action must be taken. The very fact that you say that it’s good that the hordes of Zenz lovers are China bashing and using it for the purposes of arguing that China should be destroyed rather than principled leftist critique that they need to be doing better is exactly the problem. You’re fueling the narrative that China is incapable of doing better.
Go ahead, send another shitty, unrelated twitter post. I hope at the very least you understand the difference between being insufficiently anti-imperialist and being actively imperialist, and that fueling the latter narrative while believing the former just backfires and gives the Kamala brigade the upper hand in saying the US is a more moral alternative.
When you pass away, I’m going to nominate you as the patron saint of online rhetoric.
Why don’t you comment on this part of their post?