You do understand any and every statistic in USSR/boarder soviet block was fake? You do understand I live here? The audacity and entitlement of telling people what they live in is impressive. Cant be further from defending the current capitalist regime, but your propaganda bullshit is just absurd.
You understand I also lived there and that plenty of people disagree with you? The only one doing propaganda bullshit here is you by not being able to even acknowledge the basic facts of the situation.
Show me one case of capitalist from post-soviet countries firing tanks at striking workers over the last 30 years? You seem to be living a nostalgic illusion, of a world that never was. The state of the glorious socialist economy made it so, that any language and ideology of the left is received as downright offensive in at least half of these countries. Ask any leftists actually living here, all the populations went far to the right. Also confusing Serbian imperialist nationalism with actual support of socialism is hilarious.
All you’re doing is making a straw man here. Nowhere have I claimed that USSR was some sort of an utopia. What I said was that it did a much better job ensuring that everyone had their needs met.
However, I’ll show you every capitalist post-soviet country where people live on the streets, and the elderly scavenge for sustenance in the trash. And now that the economic situation is dire, only an utter idiot would think that these capitalist hellholes aren’t going to use violence to keep workers in line.
The populations in these countries didn’t just go to the right all on their own. This was intentionally cultivated by your friends from the west.
I also love how you keep contradicting yourself here. First you praise Poland after transition to capitalism, and in the next breath you tell me that you don’t actually support the new capitalist system after being called out on the horrors it created. Total clown shit here.
You blast with pro-USSR stats in a thread joking about how the western leftists think Russia is a good thing.
You have little to no understanding of what the people here are going through and went through during the communist regimes. Yeah, Hungarians might say their quasi-fascist kleptocratic state is worse than communism. Not exactly a tight competition here. But to you understand complaining is a cultural thing in the region, and we’ll always say it was better before? For Hungarians, Czechs and Polish that also meant popular uprisings quelled with tanks, and currently means voting for far-right wing strongmen rather than anything remotely socialistic. They same ones which create a russia-supported oligarchic systems within their countries branding it as a nationalist turn from EU.
However, I’ll show you every capitalist post-soviet country where people live on the streets,
Ok, let’s play this. Since we’re talking in the context of Ukraine - show me a capitalist country in which multiple millions died oh hunger in the last century? Have some Holodomor for comparison.
Been to China, cant see much people living on the streets, that’s a fact. By the working conditions in normal factories, and the fear of people to discuss anything outside of the party line it’s pretty clear anyone sticking out is in a forced labour camp tho, so if that’s your ideal than yeah, you’re absolutely right, everyone has a job, no one’s on the street.
I happen to be a person who proffered to live on the street over working, and will always prefer a country where I could do this, over being forced to a labour camp, which in Poland strikes a rather simple historical comparison.
only an utter idiot would think that these capitalist hellholes aren’t going to use violence to keep workers in line
The only sentence that came out of you that I could agree with. The problem is - at least in Europe they didn’t have to go that far. The communist regimes did, on the other hand, and did it against striking workers nonetheless.
The populations in these countries didn’t just go to the right all on their own. This was intentionally cultivated
You’ve got little idea of local politics of multiple countries in question, serving a extreamly broad statement USA is an evil imperialist. It is. No either prove they assisted in the anti-communist sentiment in one of the countries in question or I’ll also start linking random 10-pagers claiming they are arguments.
We had anti-communist partisans going on just after the war, even after majority of the (also anti-communist, even if socialist) underground laid their weapons after 6 years of brutal fight that literally levelled our capital to the ground. Side fact; the partisans who laid there weapons were latter tortured and in their thousands - shot.
by your friends from the west.
you’re not my friend.
First you praise Poland after transition to capitalism, and in the next breath you tell me that you don’t actually support the new capitalist system after being called out on the horrors it created.
You meant this:
At the moment, (…) it’s not that hard to get a job and fulfil your basic needs. Not at a level we would deem acceptable, but still it’s possible to easily get basic necessities and luxuries like toilet paper (…)
Or what, cuz nowhere I got remotely close to what you’re describing. You got from not being able to support your flawed point to outright lying in a lame attempt to disprove mine.
You blast with pro-USSR stats in a thread joking about how the western leftists think Russia is a good thing. You have little to no understanding of what the people here are going through and went through during the communist regimes.
Repeatedly told you that I grew up in USSR, but do go on.
Yeah, Hungarians might say their quasi-fascist kleptocratic state is worse than communism. Not exactly a tight competition here. But to you understand complaining is a cultural thing in the region, and we’ll always say it was better before? For Hungarians, Czechs and Polish that also meant popular uprisings quelled with tanks, and currently means voting for far-right wing strongmen rather than anything remotely socialistic. They same ones which create a russia-supported oligarchic systems within their countries branding it as a nationalist turn from EU.
Once again, pretty much every post Soviet state turned into a capitalist nightmare with fascist tendencies where tangible human rights have regressed across the board. This is the reality of post-Soviet eastern Europe. Own it.
Ok, let’s play this. Since we’re talking in the context of Ukraine - show me a capitalist country in which multiple millions died oh hunger in the last century? Have some Holodomor for comparison.
I happen to be a person who proffered to live on the street over working, and will always prefer a country where I could do this, over being forced to a labour camp, which in Poland strikes a rather simple historical comparison.
Those who live off exploitation of others often profess this nonsense knowing full well that they’re not gonna be living on the streets. Why don’t you ask the people who are living on the streets and eating out of trash what they would prefer instead.
The only sentence that came out of you that I could agree with. The problem is - at least in Europe they didn’t have to go that far. The communist regimes did, on the other hand, and did it against striking workers nonetheless.
Of course it has, there is a long history of violently suppressing worker movements in Europe. Just look at what police does to protesters in France. You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
We had anti-communist partisans going on just after the war, even after majority of the (also anti-communist, even if socialist) underground laid their weapons after 6 years of brutal fight that literally levelled our capital to the ground. Side fact; the partisans who laid there weapons were latter tortured and in their thousands - shot.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself, in Europe. That’s the first true thing you’ve said.
you’re not my friend.
Never claimed to be your friend.
Or what, cuz nowhere I got remotely close to what you’re describing. You got from not being able to support your flawed point to outright lying in a lame attempt to disprove mine.
Repeatedly told you that I grew up in USSR, but do go on.
Omitted a key point, but go on, where and when? Cuz somehow you’re argumentation comes like a frustrated western commie kid. Run out of arguments surprisingly fast, very limited knowledge of CE/EE history, not even trace evidence of knowing any of the countries better. I’m calling a bluff.
Once again, pretty much every post Soviet state turned into a capitalist nightmare with fascist tendencies
Wonder why people support anything but socialism? One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. They had it so good, but all they can do now is vote for a fascist describing anything they dislike as communism… While kids of the capitalist middle class vote for socialist democrats thinking it’s something radically left… Must be magic, deficiently not 50 years of oppression.
where tangible human rights have regressed across the board.
Funny thing, both me and my brother were tortured by the police, and it was still nowhere close to usual massacres of beatings our father and his generation would have for protesting to get basic rights of self-governing or unionising.
Also, as pointed out multiple times and you keep sliding of it - no tanks shooting at us in years. But also no antisemitic pogroms nor mass deportations, like we had in the good 'ol communist days, so I don’t know man. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
This is the reality of post-Soviet eastern Europe. Own it.
Tell me, how exactly do you know it? You’re clearly somewhere in the west/USA, and you keep telling me on what I’ve got outside of my window with a very high confidence and little knowledge outside of something you read on the net.
Thanks to the wonder of capitalism roughly 3.5 million people die from lack of clean water, 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases, and 9 million people die from hunger each and every year. That’s over a 140 million deaths every decade
Yeah, globally. Now do the maths.
Why don’t you ask the people who are living on the streets and eating out of trash what they would prefer instead.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, we have these homeless centres where you can stay. The trick is, they have some rigid rules. Some are religious, some state funded but most would ban alcohol. And what we find out? People prefer to live on the streets than subdue. Might be addiction, might be their choice. Don’t know about you, but my current place runs weekly meals for anyone who wants one, so the idea what these people are about is not just my imagination, I know them and I used to live on the street by them for years.
You know who I cant talk to on the other hand? People in forced labour camps. Or North Koreans. Pretty sure there’s no homeless there, just as there were none in nazi Germany. It’s kinda key how you achieve certain things tho.
Of course it has, there is a long history of violently suppressing worker movements in Europe. Just look at what police does to protesters in France.
How many French strikers were crushed with or shot from a tank in the last 50 years?
You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
Maybe stop cherry-picking arguments you reply to and we’ll be able to settle that.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself, in Europe.
LOL’D. That would be hilarious if you had any idea who you’re talking to.
whatever you say there.
That you’re full of shit, making wildly unsubstantiated claims, lying and outright abusing the other side without any basis. Honestly if it were a live discussion you’d get a slap back to reality.
Omitted a key point, but go on, where and when? Cuz somehow you’re argumentation comes like a frustrated western commie kid. Run out of arguments surprisingly fast, very limited knowledge of CE/EE history, not even trace evidence of knowing any of the countries better. I’m calling a bluff.
Not sure what arguments you claim I’ve run out of exactly. I’ve already provided lots of surveys from a whole bunch of ex-soviet republics. So, we’re not discussing my personal experience here, but what majority of people say and what the economic situation looks like now compared to before.
You’re the one who keeps avoiding the facts here while “calling some bluff”.
Wonder why people support anything but socialism?
Yeah, wonder why people exploit other people for their own benefit. One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
Also, as pointed out multiple times and you keep sliding of it - no tanks shooting at us in years. But also no antisemitic pogroms nor mass deportations, like we had in the good 'ol communist days, so I don’t know man. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
I’m not sliding off anything. You’re the one ignoring all the human rights abuses happening right now under capitalism. Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
Tell me, how exactly do you know it?
I’m literate, the statistics on homelessness, crime, education, and social services are readily available.
Yeah, globally. Now do the maths.
I love how you’re trying to pretend the deaths are evenly distributed here.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, we have these homeless centres where you can stay.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
You know who I cant talk to on the other hand? People in forced labour camps. Or North Koreans. Pretty sure there’s no homeless there, just as there were none in nazi Germany. It’s kinda key how you achieve certain things tho.
Not sure what arguments you claim I’ve run out of exactly.
Pretty sure there’s a tank in a room there somewhere, between the arguments you just skip. One simple one would be confirming with any other leftists from the region how hated communism is since even before it fell. Just read my first comments.
I’ve already provided lots of surveys from a whole bunch of ex-soviet republics
Yeah, for sentiment. Not one of them dealt with the any hard economic data, anything that could be compared. You just state the rest, without any basis, and against a simple, possibly anegdotic, but generational evidence I can provide. Funny you can believe the same people, who vote for fascists and, as you put it;
exploit other people for their own benefit
And suddenly it’s worthy, since it supports your poor argument. Seems kinda hypocritical. Or maybe you’re just ready to throw anything rather than admit you’ve no idea what you’re ‘west-splaining’ to an actual eastern-european.
while “calling some bluff”.
Something you skipped here. Starting to be pretty sure you never even been to eastern europe.
Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle.
you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
Meanwhile in the real world, here are the salve camps supporting you
Nearly dude, nearly true. In a upside-down way of things. I’m a squatter, been since some 15 years, eating from trash, as the lumpenproletariat you dissed before, and currently working for trade unions organising Ukrainian refugees. I live in a derelict building that the city is attempting to demolish, blocking a new development with support from neighbours. So technically yeah, the oppressed do support my lifestyle. Now lets see Paul Allens card? Who are you to lecture me? You LARP being some maoist partisan living in a jungle or something?
You’re the one ignoring all the human rights abuses happening right now under capitalism.
Where? It’s a terrible system. Only compared to state communism it’s not that clear which one is worse, from a perspective of people who lived under both. There’s a reason for lack of communist revolutions since '89.
I’m literate, the statistics on homelessness, crime, education, and social services are readily available.
Ah yes. So no contact, no actual experience of the region, or you’d know how much anything official is worth here. Now still, can you please provide me with these statistics for eastern europe? Surely you have them somewhere handy, yeah?
Cuz I find it hard to come by honest stats knowing 2-3 regional languages and living here. Haven’t noticed any regional meta-analysis that would allow to base statements such as yours but honestly I’d be more than interested to get it. Feel free to drop the links here, you got a chance to prove being right all along.
Lots of people get shot, killed, and otherwise abused during strikes.
How many of them were crushed by a tanks of Peoples Army? Communist unions beating-up students trying to join strikers could count, but I don’t recall any deaths.
Anyway - just single Wujek coal mine in '81 was some 9 dead and over 20 heavily wounded in one go. Feel free to drop the stats for last 50 years in France.
You know what you are.
And thanks for exposing yourself for what you really are here.
Yeah I do. Someone not afraid to openly lead militant marches in a country where “fascists roam freely”, you shmuck. I got no problem showing who I am, nor telling what you deserve for your disrespect of supposed comrades. Now, you ever did anything away from your slave-labour keyboard and phone?
You do understand any and every statistic in USSR/boarder soviet block was fake? You do understand I live here? The audacity and entitlement of telling people what they live in is impressive. Cant be further from defending the current capitalist regime, but your propaganda bullshit is just absurd.
You understand I also lived there and that plenty of people disagree with you? The only one doing propaganda bullshit here is you by not being able to even acknowledge the basic facts of the situation.
Show me one case of capitalist from post-soviet countries firing tanks at striking workers over the last 30 years? You seem to be living a nostalgic illusion, of a world that never was. The state of the glorious socialist economy made it so, that any language and ideology of the left is received as downright offensive in at least half of these countries. Ask any leftists actually living here, all the populations went far to the right. Also confusing Serbian imperialist nationalism with actual support of socialism is hilarious.
All you’re doing is making a straw man here. Nowhere have I claimed that USSR was some sort of an utopia. What I said was that it did a much better job ensuring that everyone had their needs met.
However, I’ll show you every capitalist post-soviet country where people live on the streets, and the elderly scavenge for sustenance in the trash. And now that the economic situation is dire, only an utter idiot would think that these capitalist hellholes aren’t going to use violence to keep workers in line.
The populations in these countries didn’t just go to the right all on their own. This was intentionally cultivated by your friends from the west.
I also love how you keep contradicting yourself here. First you praise Poland after transition to capitalism, and in the next breath you tell me that you don’t actually support the new capitalist system after being called out on the horrors it created. Total clown shit here.
You blast with pro-USSR stats in a thread joking about how the western leftists think Russia is a good thing. You have little to no understanding of what the people here are going through and went through during the communist regimes. Yeah, Hungarians might say their quasi-fascist kleptocratic state is worse than communism. Not exactly a tight competition here. But to you understand complaining is a cultural thing in the region, and we’ll always say it was better before? For Hungarians, Czechs and Polish that also meant popular uprisings quelled with tanks, and currently means voting for far-right wing strongmen rather than anything remotely socialistic. They same ones which create a russia-supported oligarchic systems within their countries branding it as a nationalist turn from EU.
Ok, let’s play this. Since we’re talking in the context of Ukraine - show me a capitalist country in which multiple millions died oh hunger in the last century? Have some Holodomor for comparison.
Been to China, cant see much people living on the streets, that’s a fact. By the working conditions in normal factories, and the fear of people to discuss anything outside of the party line it’s pretty clear anyone sticking out is in a forced labour camp tho, so if that’s your ideal than yeah, you’re absolutely right, everyone has a job, no one’s on the street.
I happen to be a person who proffered to live on the street over working, and will always prefer a country where I could do this, over being forced to a labour camp, which in Poland strikes a rather simple historical comparison.
The only sentence that came out of you that I could agree with. The problem is - at least in Europe they didn’t have to go that far. The communist regimes did, on the other hand, and did it against striking workers nonetheless.
You’ve got little idea of local politics of multiple countries in question, serving a extreamly broad statement USA is an evil imperialist. It is. No either prove they assisted in the anti-communist sentiment in one of the countries in question or I’ll also start linking random 10-pagers claiming they are arguments.
We had anti-communist partisans going on just after the war, even after majority of the (also anti-communist, even if socialist) underground laid their weapons after 6 years of brutal fight that literally levelled our capital to the ground. Side fact; the partisans who laid there weapons were latter tortured and in their thousands - shot.
you’re not my friend.
You meant this:
Or what, cuz nowhere I got remotely close to what you’re describing. You got from not being able to support your flawed point to outright lying in a lame attempt to disprove mine.
Repeatedly told you that I grew up in USSR, but do go on.
Once again, pretty much every post Soviet state turned into a capitalist nightmare with fascist tendencies where tangible human rights have regressed across the board. This is the reality of post-Soviet eastern Europe. Own it.
Thanks to the wonder of capitalism roughly 3.5 million people die from lack of clean water, 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases, and 9 million people die from hunger each and every year. That’s over a 140 million deaths every decade. Have some Holodomor for comparison indeed you bloody ignoramus.
Those who live off exploitation of others often profess this nonsense knowing full well that they’re not gonna be living on the streets. Why don’t you ask the people who are living on the streets and eating out of trash what they would prefer instead.
Of course it has, there is a long history of violently suppressing worker movements in Europe. Just look at what police does to protesters in France. You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself, in Europe. That’s the first true thing you’ve said.
Never claimed to be your friend.
LMFAO whatever you say there.
Omitted a key point, but go on, where and when? Cuz somehow you’re argumentation comes like a frustrated western commie kid. Run out of arguments surprisingly fast, very limited knowledge of CE/EE history, not even trace evidence of knowing any of the countries better. I’m calling a bluff.
Wonder why people support anything but socialism? One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. They had it so good, but all they can do now is vote for a fascist describing anything they dislike as communism… While kids of the capitalist middle class vote for socialist democrats thinking it’s something radically left… Must be magic, deficiently not 50 years of oppression.
Funny thing, both me and my brother were tortured by the police, and it was still nowhere close to usual massacres of beatings our father and his generation would have for protesting to get basic rights of self-governing or unionising. Also, as pointed out multiple times and you keep sliding of it - no tanks shooting at us in years. But also no antisemitic pogroms nor mass deportations, like we had in the good 'ol communist days, so I don’t know man. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
Tell me, how exactly do you know it? You’re clearly somewhere in the west/USA, and you keep telling me on what I’ve got outside of my window with a very high confidence and little knowledge outside of something you read on the net.
Yeah, globally. Now do the maths.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, we have these homeless centres where you can stay. The trick is, they have some rigid rules. Some are religious, some state funded but most would ban alcohol. And what we find out? People prefer to live on the streets than subdue. Might be addiction, might be their choice. Don’t know about you, but my current place runs weekly meals for anyone who wants one, so the idea what these people are about is not just my imagination, I know them and I used to live on the street by them for years.
You know who I cant talk to on the other hand? People in forced labour camps. Or North Koreans. Pretty sure there’s no homeless there, just as there were none in nazi Germany. It’s kinda key how you achieve certain things tho.
How many French strikers were crushed with or shot from a tank in the last 50 years?
Maybe stop cherry-picking arguments you reply to and we’ll be able to settle that.
LOL’D. That would be hilarious if you had any idea who you’re talking to.
That you’re full of shit, making wildly unsubstantiated claims, lying and outright abusing the other side without any basis. Honestly if it were a live discussion you’d get a slap back to reality.
Not sure what arguments you claim I’ve run out of exactly. I’ve already provided lots of surveys from a whole bunch of ex-soviet republics. So, we’re not discussing my personal experience here, but what majority of people say and what the economic situation looks like now compared to before.
You’re the one who keeps avoiding the facts here while “calling some bluff”.
Yeah, wonder why people exploit other people for their own benefit. One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
I’m not sliding off anything. You’re the one ignoring all the human rights abuses happening right now under capitalism. Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
I’m literate, the statistics on homelessness, crime, education, and social services are readily available.
I love how you’re trying to pretend the deaths are evenly distributed here.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
Meanwhile in the real world, here are the salve camps supporting you https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/sep/02/child-labour-on-nestle-farms-chocolate-giants-problems-continue
Lots of people get shot, killed, and otherwise abused during strikes.
Maybe take your own advice.
Oh I have a good idea of whom I’m talking to here. You know what you are.
That’s a self referential comment if I ever saw one.
And thanks for exposing yourself for what you really are here.
Pretty sure there’s a tank in a room there somewhere, between the arguments you just skip. One simple one would be confirming with any other leftists from the region how hated communism is since even before it fell. Just read my first comments.
Yeah, for sentiment. Not one of them dealt with the any hard economic data, anything that could be compared. You just state the rest, without any basis, and against a simple, possibly anegdotic, but generational evidence I can provide. Funny you can believe the same people, who vote for fascists and, as you put it;
And suddenly it’s worthy, since it supports your poor argument. Seems kinda hypocritical. Or maybe you’re just ready to throw anything rather than admit you’ve no idea what you’re ‘west-splaining’ to an actual eastern-european.
Something you skipped here. Starting to be pretty sure you never even been to eastern europe.
Nearly dude, nearly true. In a upside-down way of things. I’m a squatter, been since some 15 years, eating from trash, as the lumpenproletariat you dissed before, and currently working for trade unions organising Ukrainian refugees. I live in a derelict building that the city is attempting to demolish, blocking a new development with support from neighbours. So technically yeah, the oppressed do support my lifestyle. Now lets see Paul Allens card? Who are you to lecture me? You LARP being some maoist partisan living in a jungle or something?
Where? It’s a terrible system. Only compared to state communism it’s not that clear which one is worse, from a perspective of people who lived under both. There’s a reason for lack of communist revolutions since '89.
Ah yes. So no contact, no actual experience of the region, or you’d know how much anything official is worth here. Now still, can you please provide me with these statistics for eastern europe? Surely you have them somewhere handy, yeah?
Cuz I find it hard to come by honest stats knowing 2-3 regional languages and living here. Haven’t noticed any regional meta-analysis that would allow to base statements such as yours but honestly I’d be more than interested to get it. Feel free to drop the links here, you got a chance to prove being right all along.
How many of them were crushed by a tanks of Peoples Army? Communist unions beating-up students trying to join strikers could count, but I don’t recall any deaths. Anyway - just single Wujek coal mine in '81 was some 9 dead and over 20 heavily wounded in one go. Feel free to drop the stats for last 50 years in France.
Yeah I do. Someone not afraid to openly lead militant marches in a country where “fascists roam freely”, you shmuck. I got no problem showing who I am, nor telling what you deserve for your disrespect of supposed comrades. Now, you ever did anything away from your slave-labour keyboard and phone?