You blast with pro-USSR stats in a thread joking about how the western leftists think Russia is a good thing.
You have little to no understanding of what the people here are going through and went through during the communist regimes. Yeah, Hungarians might say their quasi-fascist kleptocratic state is worse than communism. Not exactly a tight competition here. But to you understand complaining is a cultural thing in the region, and we’ll always say it was better before? For Hungarians, Czechs and Polish that also meant popular uprisings quelled with tanks, and currently means voting for far-right wing strongmen rather than anything remotely socialistic. They same ones which create a russia-supported oligarchic systems within their countries branding it as a nationalist turn from EU.
However, I’ll show you every capitalist post-soviet country where people live on the streets,
Ok, let’s play this. Since we’re talking in the context of Ukraine - show me a capitalist country in which multiple millions died oh hunger in the last century? Have some Holodomor for comparison.
Been to China, cant see much people living on the streets, that’s a fact. By the working conditions in normal factories, and the fear of people to discuss anything outside of the party line it’s pretty clear anyone sticking out is in a forced labour camp tho, so if that’s your ideal than yeah, you’re absolutely right, everyone has a job, no one’s on the street.
I happen to be a person who proffered to live on the street over working, and will always prefer a country where I could do this, over being forced to a labour camp, which in Poland strikes a rather simple historical comparison.
only an utter idiot would think that these capitalist hellholes aren’t going to use violence to keep workers in line
The only sentence that came out of you that I could agree with. The problem is - at least in Europe they didn’t have to go that far. The communist regimes did, on the other hand, and did it against striking workers nonetheless.
The populations in these countries didn’t just go to the right all on their own. This was intentionally cultivated
You’ve got little idea of local politics of multiple countries in question, serving a extreamly broad statement USA is an evil imperialist. It is. No either prove they assisted in the anti-communist sentiment in one of the countries in question or I’ll also start linking random 10-pagers claiming they are arguments.
We had anti-communist partisans going on just after the war, even after majority of the (also anti-communist, even if socialist) underground laid their weapons after 6 years of brutal fight that literally levelled our capital to the ground. Side fact; the partisans who laid there weapons were latter tortured and in their thousands - shot.
by your friends from the west.
you’re not my friend.
First you praise Poland after transition to capitalism, and in the next breath you tell me that you don’t actually support the new capitalist system after being called out on the horrors it created.
You meant this:
At the moment, (…) it’s not that hard to get a job and fulfil your basic needs. Not at a level we would deem acceptable, but still it’s possible to easily get basic necessities and luxuries like toilet paper (…)
Or what, cuz nowhere I got remotely close to what you’re describing. You got from not being able to support your flawed point to outright lying in a lame attempt to disprove mine.
You blast with pro-USSR stats in a thread joking about how the western leftists think Russia is a good thing. You have little to no understanding of what the people here are going through and went through during the communist regimes.
Repeatedly told you that I grew up in USSR, but do go on.
Yeah, Hungarians might say their quasi-fascist kleptocratic state is worse than communism. Not exactly a tight competition here. But to you understand complaining is a cultural thing in the region, and we’ll always say it was better before? For Hungarians, Czechs and Polish that also meant popular uprisings quelled with tanks, and currently means voting for far-right wing strongmen rather than anything remotely socialistic. They same ones which create a russia-supported oligarchic systems within their countries branding it as a nationalist turn from EU.
Once again, pretty much every post Soviet state turned into a capitalist nightmare with fascist tendencies where tangible human rights have regressed across the board. This is the reality of post-Soviet eastern Europe. Own it.
Ok, let’s play this. Since we’re talking in the context of Ukraine - show me a capitalist country in which multiple millions died oh hunger in the last century? Have some Holodomor for comparison.
I happen to be a person who proffered to live on the street over working, and will always prefer a country where I could do this, over being forced to a labour camp, which in Poland strikes a rather simple historical comparison.
Those who live off exploitation of others often profess this nonsense knowing full well that they’re not gonna be living on the streets. Why don’t you ask the people who are living on the streets and eating out of trash what they would prefer instead.
The only sentence that came out of you that I could agree with. The problem is - at least in Europe they didn’t have to go that far. The communist regimes did, on the other hand, and did it against striking workers nonetheless.
Of course it has, there is a long history of violently suppressing worker movements in Europe. Just look at what police does to protesters in France. You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
We had anti-communist partisans going on just after the war, even after majority of the (also anti-communist, even if socialist) underground laid their weapons after 6 years of brutal fight that literally levelled our capital to the ground. Side fact; the partisans who laid there weapons were latter tortured and in their thousands - shot.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself, in Europe. That’s the first true thing you’ve said.
you’re not my friend.
Never claimed to be your friend.
Or what, cuz nowhere I got remotely close to what you’re describing. You got from not being able to support your flawed point to outright lying in a lame attempt to disprove mine.
Repeatedly told you that I grew up in USSR, but do go on.
Omitted a key point, but go on, where and when? Cuz somehow you’re argumentation comes like a frustrated western commie kid. Run out of arguments surprisingly fast, very limited knowledge of CE/EE history, not even trace evidence of knowing any of the countries better. I’m calling a bluff.
Once again, pretty much every post Soviet state turned into a capitalist nightmare with fascist tendencies
Wonder why people support anything but socialism? One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. They had it so good, but all they can do now is vote for a fascist describing anything they dislike as communism… While kids of the capitalist middle class vote for socialist democrats thinking it’s something radically left… Must be magic, deficiently not 50 years of oppression.
where tangible human rights have regressed across the board.
Funny thing, both me and my brother were tortured by the police, and it was still nowhere close to usual massacres of beatings our father and his generation would have for protesting to get basic rights of self-governing or unionising.
Also, as pointed out multiple times and you keep sliding of it - no tanks shooting at us in years. But also no antisemitic pogroms nor mass deportations, like we had in the good 'ol communist days, so I don’t know man. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
This is the reality of post-Soviet eastern Europe. Own it.
Tell me, how exactly do you know it? You’re clearly somewhere in the west/USA, and you keep telling me on what I’ve got outside of my window with a very high confidence and little knowledge outside of something you read on the net.
Thanks to the wonder of capitalism roughly 3.5 million people die from lack of clean water, 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases, and 9 million people die from hunger each and every year. That’s over a 140 million deaths every decade
Yeah, globally. Now do the maths.
Why don’t you ask the people who are living on the streets and eating out of trash what they would prefer instead.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, we have these homeless centres where you can stay. The trick is, they have some rigid rules. Some are religious, some state funded but most would ban alcohol. And what we find out? People prefer to live on the streets than subdue. Might be addiction, might be their choice. Don’t know about you, but my current place runs weekly meals for anyone who wants one, so the idea what these people are about is not just my imagination, I know them and I used to live on the street by them for years.
You know who I cant talk to on the other hand? People in forced labour camps. Or North Koreans. Pretty sure there’s no homeless there, just as there were none in nazi Germany. It’s kinda key how you achieve certain things tho.
Of course it has, there is a long history of violently suppressing worker movements in Europe. Just look at what police does to protesters in France.
How many French strikers were crushed with or shot from a tank in the last 50 years?
You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
Maybe stop cherry-picking arguments you reply to and we’ll be able to settle that.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself, in Europe.
LOL’D. That would be hilarious if you had any idea who you’re talking to.
whatever you say there.
That you’re full of shit, making wildly unsubstantiated claims, lying and outright abusing the other side without any basis. Honestly if it were a live discussion you’d get a slap back to reality.
Omitted a key point, but go on, where and when? Cuz somehow you’re argumentation comes like a frustrated western commie kid. Run out of arguments surprisingly fast, very limited knowledge of CE/EE history, not even trace evidence of knowing any of the countries better. I’m calling a bluff.
Not sure what arguments you claim I’ve run out of exactly. I’ve already provided lots of surveys from a whole bunch of ex-soviet republics. So, we’re not discussing my personal experience here, but what majority of people say and what the economic situation looks like now compared to before.
You’re the one who keeps avoiding the facts here while “calling some bluff”.
Wonder why people support anything but socialism?
Yeah, wonder why people exploit other people for their own benefit. One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
Also, as pointed out multiple times and you keep sliding of it - no tanks shooting at us in years. But also no antisemitic pogroms nor mass deportations, like we had in the good 'ol communist days, so I don’t know man. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
I’m not sliding off anything. You’re the one ignoring all the human rights abuses happening right now under capitalism. Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
Tell me, how exactly do you know it?
I’m literate, the statistics on homelessness, crime, education, and social services are readily available.
Yeah, globally. Now do the maths.
I love how you’re trying to pretend the deaths are evenly distributed here.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, we have these homeless centres where you can stay.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
You know who I cant talk to on the other hand? People in forced labour camps. Or North Koreans. Pretty sure there’s no homeless there, just as there were none in nazi Germany. It’s kinda key how you achieve certain things tho.
Not sure what arguments you claim I’ve run out of exactly.
Pretty sure there’s a tank in a room there somewhere, between the arguments you just skip. One simple one would be confirming with any other leftists from the region how hated communism is since even before it fell. Just read my first comments.
I’ve already provided lots of surveys from a whole bunch of ex-soviet republics
Yeah, for sentiment. Not one of them dealt with the any hard economic data, anything that could be compared. You just state the rest, without any basis, and against a simple, possibly anegdotic, but generational evidence I can provide. Funny you can believe the same people, who vote for fascists and, as you put it;
exploit other people for their own benefit
And suddenly it’s worthy, since it supports your poor argument. Seems kinda hypocritical. Or maybe you’re just ready to throw anything rather than admit you’ve no idea what you’re ‘west-splaining’ to an actual eastern-european.
while “calling some bluff”.
Something you skipped here. Starting to be pretty sure you never even been to eastern europe.
Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle.
you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
Meanwhile in the real world, here are the salve camps supporting you
Nearly dude, nearly true. In a upside-down way of things. I’m a squatter, been since some 15 years, eating from trash, as the lumpenproletariat you dissed before, and currently working for trade unions organising Ukrainian refugees. I live in a derelict building that the city is attempting to demolish, blocking a new development with support from neighbours. So technically yeah, the oppressed do support my lifestyle. Now lets see Paul Allens card? Who are you to lecture me? You LARP being some maoist partisan living in a jungle or something?
You’re the one ignoring all the human rights abuses happening right now under capitalism.
Where? It’s a terrible system. Only compared to state communism it’s not that clear which one is worse, from a perspective of people who lived under both. There’s a reason for lack of communist revolutions since '89.
I’m literate, the statistics on homelessness, crime, education, and social services are readily available.
Ah yes. So no contact, no actual experience of the region, or you’d know how much anything official is worth here. Now still, can you please provide me with these statistics for eastern europe? Surely you have them somewhere handy, yeah?
Cuz I find it hard to come by honest stats knowing 2-3 regional languages and living here. Haven’t noticed any regional meta-analysis that would allow to base statements such as yours but honestly I’d be more than interested to get it. Feel free to drop the links here, you got a chance to prove being right all along.
Lots of people get shot, killed, and otherwise abused during strikes.
How many of them were crushed by a tanks of Peoples Army? Communist unions beating-up students trying to join strikers could count, but I don’t recall any deaths.
Anyway - just single Wujek coal mine in '81 was some 9 dead and over 20 heavily wounded in one go. Feel free to drop the stats for last 50 years in France.
You know what you are.
And thanks for exposing yourself for what you really are here.
Yeah I do. Someone not afraid to openly lead militant marches in a country where “fascists roam freely”, you shmuck. I got no problem showing who I am, nor telling what you deserve for your disrespect of supposed comrades. Now, you ever did anything away from your slave-labour keyboard and phone?
Pretty sure there’s a tank in a room there somewhere, between the arguments you just skip.
Nah, I’m not skipping anything. You’re making an emotional appeal here ignoring the fact that suffering and abuses under capitalism eclipse anything that happened in USSR. Now, that USSR no longer exists, we see the world that “leftists” like you built.
Yeah, for sentiment. Not one of them dealt with the any hard economic data, anything that could be compared. You just state the rest, without any basis, and against a simple, possibly anegdotic, but generational evidence I can provide. Funny you can believe the same people, who vote for fascists and, as you put it
Go look up the hardcore economic data on poverty, homelessness, crime, and so on in post USSR states.
Something you skipped here. Starting to be pretty sure you never even been to eastern europe.
You keep trying to use ad hominem here instead of addressing my points. A pretty lazy troll tactic really.
Nearly dude, nearly true. In a upside-down way of things. I’m a squatter, been since some 15 years, eating from trash, as the lumpenproletariat you dissed before, and currently working for trade unions organising Ukrainian refugees. I live in a derelict building that the city is attempting to demolish, blocking a new development with support from neighbours. So technically yeah, the oppressed do support my lifestyle. Now lets see Paul Allens card? Who are you to lecture me? You LARP being some maoist partisan living in a jungle or something?
I don’t larp anything , and nowhere in this thread have I made this about myself. That’s the tactic you keep using. I’m discussing what happened to the conditions for the majority of people. Meanwhile, you keep flipping between telling me how much better life got in Poland under capitalism and how terrible your material conditions are. No consistency whatsoever here. You just write whatever bullshit is convenient at the time.
Where? It’s a terrible system. Only compared to state communism it’s not that clear which one is worse, from a perspective of people who lived under both.
Under state communism everyone had things like housing, jobs, education, healthcare, and food which capitalism is not able to provide. You keep talking as if you represent everyone who lived under both systems. So why don’t you provide some stats to support your assertions.
There’s a reason for lack of communist revolutions since '89.
When you totally understand how revolutions work.
Ah yes. So no contact, no actual experience of the region, or you’d know how much anything official is worth here. Now still, can you please provide me with these statistics for eastern europe? Surely you have them somewhere handy, yeah?
Why don’t you provide some stats to support your assertions since you know so much about the region.
Yeah I do. Someone not afraid to openly lead militant marches in a country where “fascists roam freely”, you shmuck.
The fascists roam freely and run Poland because of shmucks like you. Keep marching while they still let you.
You keep trying to use ad hominem here instead of addressing my points. A pretty lazy troll tactic really.
Dude. Get a grip on yourself…
we see the world that “leftists” like you built.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself,
You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
you bloody ignoramus.
Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle.
you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
Meanwhile in the real world, here are the salve camps supporting you
That’s not even all, i’d have to copy half of your ‘arguments’ to cover all ‘ad personam’ arguments/attacks. And you attempt to label me as the one using lazy troll tactics?
You claim to base your literacy of statistics. I know there hardly are any that would substantiate your claims, so I call bullshit and ask you to provide any. You lunch of on a full on bullshit spin in any possible direction other than facts.
Seriously, if you ever actually happen to come to Eastern Europe better watch out in conversations with people, as you will simply get literally beaten up for such behaviour. Especially while claiming to have knowledge of peoples experience where you have none outside of marxist propaganda.
Under state communism everyone had things like housing, jobs, education, healthcare, and food which capitalism is not able to provide
Yeaaaah. I wonder how come the most often brought up memory is standing in queue hoping to get some meat, or rushing to a shop where according to gossips there’s toilet paper. That’s for when food was rationed anyway, and you couldn’t buy it even if you had the money for it (since that’s the type of communism you’re defending), so people got about half of their diets from the black market since there was no other way.
The rest of course looks good on paper, and was provided in theory. For example my family managed to get a nice flat in a new model socialist neighbourhood in Warsaw, and it was a massive privilege. It did have a nice room for a servant, btw, as it was meant to go to a party member, and by pure chance ended up with normal workers. But nowadays we don’t live in USA, we don’t live in a socialist state and it’s still pretty much the same quality of services now as it was; you wait ~20-30 years for a communal flat, half a year to few years for necessary medical procedures, get lousy education (apart for corporal punishment that was actually better then, especially for higher education, but oddly far more elitist by design, just check the higher education output nowadays. Oh, and yeah, still free including universities). The capitalist state here provides most of this at a similar (similarly miserable) level. This is why I’m telling you that you have little idea of how the stuff works here. And that’s not limited to Poland. There absolutely are whole areas where things got worse, but you wouldn’t have an idea, and I wont bother to point you.
Meanwhile, you keep flipping between telling me how much better life got in Poland under capitalism
Yeah, literally said we can now buy bread and toilet paper, but it’s conditions are still unacceptable. Go check it.
and how terrible your material conditions are. No consistency whatsoever here.
I live in self imposed poverty for ethical reasons. Could be working for an IT corpo; I run the Lemmy instance I’m writing from. Instead I choose to work for the unions, which means I’m burned for most employers in Poland. Never once complained about my conditions, I just described them, so you understand where I’m coming from. Which proved futile, since you’re not interested in reaching the truth, only winning a random internet discussion for some marxist/trot brownie points I guess.
You keep talking as if you represent everyone who lived under both systems. So why don’t you provide some stats to support your assertions.
Check any election results from the region and tell me how the communists are scoring please. Supposedly you know all the stats already anyway. Feel free to add anything left of social democrats actually, since communist parties are illegal in Poland (and never had more the few hundred members since 90’s anyway). If by chance you actually do, and notice polish SLD “left alliance” of ex-communist party members - it might be worthy of noting their active party members being more economically liberal and culturally conservative than the neo-lib/neo-con PO ex-ruling party. There’s some good academic research for that, but wont even bother to look it up for you, you’re literate yourself in the end. Anyway’s SLD heavily penalised all drugs and filled the prisons with users, stiffend the abortion laws and gave massive rights to the church, so they’re literally above the law since SLD’s last rule, and got a basis for a massive land grab.
The fascists roam freely and run Poland because of shmucks like you.
I’d be offended if it wasn’t coming from a nobody.
Keep marching while they still let you.
Yeah, not like they have a choice. You claimed they roam the streets? Well, we throw a streetparty on their biggest day and amassment of fascist from all over Europe (11th of November, “march of independence”) and bring it up to some 200 meters from them. Police barricades block the way further, they ddnt even attempt an attack since some 9 years. That’s while holding 20:1 ratio, as they have government support and funding, and what we have for support in the west is mostly useless little shits like you.
On the other hand they did recently attempt to attack a 100k strong women’s march, only to get a dozen or more of themselves hospitalized. Here you go with one from that. Also here [1,2] you can have a ~150 football hools/nazis attacking my house some years ago. I’m clearly visible in all three, actually.
So how much you actually know about what’s going on in CEE? And for any comparison - what you been up to lately? Dressed up in a red bandana and got pushed around by the wind while attempting to fly a flag? Or haven’t even left your home? Meet any workers maybe, other than serving your useless fat ass?
For such cases, in polish we say “chujem jesteś, w dupie byłeś, gówno widziałeś” and I think it’s beautiful. EOT.
That’s not even all, i’d have to copy half of your ‘arguments’ to cover all ‘ad personam’ arguments/attacks. And you attempt to label me as the one using lazy troll tactics?
That’s just me stating my opinion of people like you. Nowhere do I try to discredit what you say based on what I think of you.
You claim to base your literacy of statistics. I know there hardly are any that would substantiate your claims, so I call bullshit and ask you to provide any. You lunch of on a full on bullshit spin in any possible direction other than facts.
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time https://www.jstor.org/stable/2672986?seq=1
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/
Yeaaaah. I wonder how come the most often brought up memory is standing in queue hoping to get some meat, or rushing to a shop where according to gossips there’s toilet paper.
Yeaaaah. I wonder how come people now live under bridges and eat out of dumpsters. I guess that’s what you call progress.
Yeah, literally said we can now buy bread and toilet paper, but it’s conditions are still unacceptable. Go check it.
You literally said that capitalism is an improvement, and you never once acknowledged all the people who were left behind.
Which proved futile, since you’re not interested in reaching the truth, only winning a random internet discussion for some marxist/trot brownie points I guess.
The truth of the discussion is that transition to capitalism created massive inequality, pushed masses of people into destitute conditions, and is now fuelling the rise of fascism.
Check any election results from the region and tell me how the communists are scoring please.
Yeah weird how after communists have been suppressed and prosecuted across eastern Europe with parties being banned, organizing being prohibited, there aren’t many communists left.
I’d be offended if it wasn’t coming from a nobody.
Nobody cares if you’re offended. Just pointing out a simple fact that anti communists like you are facilitating literal fascists who will eventually get around to people like you too.
That’s while holding 20:1 ratio, as they have government support and funding, and what we have for support in the west is mostly useless little shits like you.
The fascists are in your government, control your means of production, own your police, and your military. But you keep on marching and thinking that’s gonna make a difference.
So how much you actually know about what’s going on in CEE? And for any comparison - what you been up to lately? Dressed up in a red bandana and got pushed around by the wind while attempting to fly a flag? Or haven’t even left your home? Meet any workers maybe, other than serving your useless fat ass?
Sounds to me like you painting a self portrait there.
1986
1986
1999 but that’s about the development of Soviet Union
2003, wow.
Only the last one ends with this little gem of an argument in your (dis)favour;
By the 1970s, the ratio of good decisions to bad was falling. Perhaps the greatest virtue of the market system is that no single individual is in charge of the economy, so no one has to contrive solutions to the challenges that continually arise. The early strength of the Soviet system became its great weakness as the economy stopped growing because of the failure of imagination at the top.
And of course does not compare the quality of life before and after collapse of state capitalism (or communism as you want to call it).
So, which one of these proves how life conditions dropped since the collapse of USSR and where? You might not have reached that level of education yet, but generally it’s in good fashion to reference particular pages. Seems very much like a hasty google search by basic keywords. You’re a bad joke, and so are your ‘arguments’.
You blast with pro-USSR stats in a thread joking about how the western leftists think Russia is a good thing. You have little to no understanding of what the people here are going through and went through during the communist regimes. Yeah, Hungarians might say their quasi-fascist kleptocratic state is worse than communism. Not exactly a tight competition here. But to you understand complaining is a cultural thing in the region, and we’ll always say it was better before? For Hungarians, Czechs and Polish that also meant popular uprisings quelled with tanks, and currently means voting for far-right wing strongmen rather than anything remotely socialistic. They same ones which create a russia-supported oligarchic systems within their countries branding it as a nationalist turn from EU.
Ok, let’s play this. Since we’re talking in the context of Ukraine - show me a capitalist country in which multiple millions died oh hunger in the last century? Have some Holodomor for comparison.
Been to China, cant see much people living on the streets, that’s a fact. By the working conditions in normal factories, and the fear of people to discuss anything outside of the party line it’s pretty clear anyone sticking out is in a forced labour camp tho, so if that’s your ideal than yeah, you’re absolutely right, everyone has a job, no one’s on the street.
I happen to be a person who proffered to live on the street over working, and will always prefer a country where I could do this, over being forced to a labour camp, which in Poland strikes a rather simple historical comparison.
The only sentence that came out of you that I could agree with. The problem is - at least in Europe they didn’t have to go that far. The communist regimes did, on the other hand, and did it against striking workers nonetheless.
You’ve got little idea of local politics of multiple countries in question, serving a extreamly broad statement USA is an evil imperialist. It is. No either prove they assisted in the anti-communist sentiment in one of the countries in question or I’ll also start linking random 10-pagers claiming they are arguments.
We had anti-communist partisans going on just after the war, even after majority of the (also anti-communist, even if socialist) underground laid their weapons after 6 years of brutal fight that literally levelled our capital to the ground. Side fact; the partisans who laid there weapons were latter tortured and in their thousands - shot.
you’re not my friend.
You meant this:
Or what, cuz nowhere I got remotely close to what you’re describing. You got from not being able to support your flawed point to outright lying in a lame attempt to disprove mine.
Repeatedly told you that I grew up in USSR, but do go on.
Once again, pretty much every post Soviet state turned into a capitalist nightmare with fascist tendencies where tangible human rights have regressed across the board. This is the reality of post-Soviet eastern Europe. Own it.
Thanks to the wonder of capitalism roughly 3.5 million people die from lack of clean water, 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases, and 9 million people die from hunger each and every year. That’s over a 140 million deaths every decade. Have some Holodomor for comparison indeed you bloody ignoramus.
Those who live off exploitation of others often profess this nonsense knowing full well that they’re not gonna be living on the streets. Why don’t you ask the people who are living on the streets and eating out of trash what they would prefer instead.
Of course it has, there is a long history of violently suppressing worker movements in Europe. Just look at what police does to protesters in France. You’re an incredibly dishonest individual.
Lots of fascists and their enablers, such as yourself, in Europe. That’s the first true thing you’ve said.
Never claimed to be your friend.
LMFAO whatever you say there.
Omitted a key point, but go on, where and when? Cuz somehow you’re argumentation comes like a frustrated western commie kid. Run out of arguments surprisingly fast, very limited knowledge of CE/EE history, not even trace evidence of knowing any of the countries better. I’m calling a bluff.
Wonder why people support anything but socialism? One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. They had it so good, but all they can do now is vote for a fascist describing anything they dislike as communism… While kids of the capitalist middle class vote for socialist democrats thinking it’s something radically left… Must be magic, deficiently not 50 years of oppression.
Funny thing, both me and my brother were tortured by the police, and it was still nowhere close to usual massacres of beatings our father and his generation would have for protesting to get basic rights of self-governing or unionising. Also, as pointed out multiple times and you keep sliding of it - no tanks shooting at us in years. But also no antisemitic pogroms nor mass deportations, like we had in the good 'ol communist days, so I don’t know man. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
Tell me, how exactly do you know it? You’re clearly somewhere in the west/USA, and you keep telling me on what I’ve got outside of my window with a very high confidence and little knowledge outside of something you read on the net.
Yeah, globally. Now do the maths.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, we have these homeless centres where you can stay. The trick is, they have some rigid rules. Some are religious, some state funded but most would ban alcohol. And what we find out? People prefer to live on the streets than subdue. Might be addiction, might be their choice. Don’t know about you, but my current place runs weekly meals for anyone who wants one, so the idea what these people are about is not just my imagination, I know them and I used to live on the street by them for years.
You know who I cant talk to on the other hand? People in forced labour camps. Or North Koreans. Pretty sure there’s no homeless there, just as there were none in nazi Germany. It’s kinda key how you achieve certain things tho.
How many French strikers were crushed with or shot from a tank in the last 50 years?
Maybe stop cherry-picking arguments you reply to and we’ll be able to settle that.
LOL’D. That would be hilarious if you had any idea who you’re talking to.
That you’re full of shit, making wildly unsubstantiated claims, lying and outright abusing the other side without any basis. Honestly if it were a live discussion you’d get a slap back to reality.
Not sure what arguments you claim I’ve run out of exactly. I’ve already provided lots of surveys from a whole bunch of ex-soviet republics. So, we’re not discussing my personal experience here, but what majority of people say and what the economic situation looks like now compared to before.
You’re the one who keeps avoiding the facts here while “calling some bluff”.
Yeah, wonder why people exploit other people for their own benefit. One of the big mysteries of universe I guess, just no way to know that. Wonder why you enjoy your current lifestyle built on the backs of the exploited.
I’m not sliding off anything. You’re the one ignoring all the human rights abuses happening right now under capitalism. Meanwhile, we’re not even talking about all the horrors of imperialism and literal slavery in the colonized countries that directly subsidize your lifestyle. Maybe the world isn’t as simple as you imagine?
I’m literate, the statistics on homelessness, crime, education, and social services are readily available.
I love how you’re trying to pretend the deaths are evenly distributed here.
See, the thing is - in Poland, and most ex soviet block, you brutally exploit the poor so that people like you can have a good lifestyle.
Meanwhile in the real world, here are the salve camps supporting you https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/sep/02/child-labour-on-nestle-farms-chocolate-giants-problems-continue
Lots of people get shot, killed, and otherwise abused during strikes.
Maybe take your own advice.
Oh I have a good idea of whom I’m talking to here. You know what you are.
That’s a self referential comment if I ever saw one.
And thanks for exposing yourself for what you really are here.
Pretty sure there’s a tank in a room there somewhere, between the arguments you just skip. One simple one would be confirming with any other leftists from the region how hated communism is since even before it fell. Just read my first comments.
Yeah, for sentiment. Not one of them dealt with the any hard economic data, anything that could be compared. You just state the rest, without any basis, and against a simple, possibly anegdotic, but generational evidence I can provide. Funny you can believe the same people, who vote for fascists and, as you put it;
And suddenly it’s worthy, since it supports your poor argument. Seems kinda hypocritical. Or maybe you’re just ready to throw anything rather than admit you’ve no idea what you’re ‘west-splaining’ to an actual eastern-european.
Something you skipped here. Starting to be pretty sure you never even been to eastern europe.
Nearly dude, nearly true. In a upside-down way of things. I’m a squatter, been since some 15 years, eating from trash, as the lumpenproletariat you dissed before, and currently working for trade unions organising Ukrainian refugees. I live in a derelict building that the city is attempting to demolish, blocking a new development with support from neighbours. So technically yeah, the oppressed do support my lifestyle. Now lets see Paul Allens card? Who are you to lecture me? You LARP being some maoist partisan living in a jungle or something?
Where? It’s a terrible system. Only compared to state communism it’s not that clear which one is worse, from a perspective of people who lived under both. There’s a reason for lack of communist revolutions since '89.
Ah yes. So no contact, no actual experience of the region, or you’d know how much anything official is worth here. Now still, can you please provide me with these statistics for eastern europe? Surely you have them somewhere handy, yeah?
Cuz I find it hard to come by honest stats knowing 2-3 regional languages and living here. Haven’t noticed any regional meta-analysis that would allow to base statements such as yours but honestly I’d be more than interested to get it. Feel free to drop the links here, you got a chance to prove being right all along.
How many of them were crushed by a tanks of Peoples Army? Communist unions beating-up students trying to join strikers could count, but I don’t recall any deaths. Anyway - just single Wujek coal mine in '81 was some 9 dead and over 20 heavily wounded in one go. Feel free to drop the stats for last 50 years in France.
Yeah I do. Someone not afraid to openly lead militant marches in a country where “fascists roam freely”, you shmuck. I got no problem showing who I am, nor telling what you deserve for your disrespect of supposed comrades. Now, you ever did anything away from your slave-labour keyboard and phone?
Nah, I’m not skipping anything. You’re making an emotional appeal here ignoring the fact that suffering and abuses under capitalism eclipse anything that happened in USSR. Now, that USSR no longer exists, we see the world that “leftists” like you built.
Go look up the hardcore economic data on poverty, homelessness, crime, and so on in post USSR states.
You keep trying to use ad hominem here instead of addressing my points. A pretty lazy troll tactic really.
I don’t larp anything , and nowhere in this thread have I made this about myself. That’s the tactic you keep using. I’m discussing what happened to the conditions for the majority of people. Meanwhile, you keep flipping between telling me how much better life got in Poland under capitalism and how terrible your material conditions are. No consistency whatsoever here. You just write whatever bullshit is convenient at the time.
Under state communism everyone had things like housing, jobs, education, healthcare, and food which capitalism is not able to provide. You keep talking as if you represent everyone who lived under both systems. So why don’t you provide some stats to support your assertions.
When you totally understand how revolutions work.
Why don’t you provide some stats to support your assertions since you know so much about the region.
The fascists roam freely and run Poland because of shmucks like you. Keep marching while they still let you.
Dude. Get a grip on yourself…
That’s not even all, i’d have to copy half of your ‘arguments’ to cover all ‘ad personam’ arguments/attacks. And you attempt to label me as the one using lazy troll tactics?
You claim to base your literacy of statistics. I know there hardly are any that would substantiate your claims, so I call bullshit and ask you to provide any. You lunch of on a full on bullshit spin in any possible direction other than facts.
Seriously, if you ever actually happen to come to Eastern Europe better watch out in conversations with people, as you will simply get literally beaten up for such behaviour. Especially while claiming to have knowledge of peoples experience where you have none outside of marxist propaganda.
Yeaaaah. I wonder how come the most often brought up memory is standing in queue hoping to get some meat, or rushing to a shop where according to gossips there’s toilet paper. That’s for when food was rationed anyway, and you couldn’t buy it even if you had the money for it (since that’s the type of communism you’re defending), so people got about half of their diets from the black market since there was no other way.
The rest of course looks good on paper, and was provided in theory. For example my family managed to get a nice flat in a new model socialist neighbourhood in Warsaw, and it was a massive privilege. It did have a nice room for a servant, btw, as it was meant to go to a party member, and by pure chance ended up with normal workers. But nowadays we don’t live in USA, we don’t live in a socialist state and it’s still pretty much the same quality of services now as it was; you wait ~20-30 years for a communal flat, half a year to few years for necessary medical procedures, get lousy education (apart for corporal punishment that was actually better then, especially for higher education, but oddly far more elitist by design, just check the higher education output nowadays. Oh, and yeah, still free including universities). The capitalist state here provides most of this at a similar (similarly miserable) level. This is why I’m telling you that you have little idea of how the stuff works here. And that’s not limited to Poland. There absolutely are whole areas where things got worse, but you wouldn’t have an idea, and I wont bother to point you.
Yeah, literally said we can now buy bread and toilet paper, but it’s conditions are still unacceptable. Go check it.
I live in self imposed poverty for ethical reasons. Could be working for an IT corpo; I run the Lemmy instance I’m writing from. Instead I choose to work for the unions, which means I’m burned for most employers in Poland. Never once complained about my conditions, I just described them, so you understand where I’m coming from. Which proved futile, since you’re not interested in reaching the truth, only winning a random internet discussion for some marxist/trot brownie points I guess.
Check any election results from the region and tell me how the communists are scoring please. Supposedly you know all the stats already anyway. Feel free to add anything left of social democrats actually, since communist parties are illegal in Poland (and never had more the few hundred members since 90’s anyway). If by chance you actually do, and notice polish SLD “left alliance” of ex-communist party members - it might be worthy of noting their active party members being more economically liberal and culturally conservative than the neo-lib/neo-con PO ex-ruling party. There’s some good academic research for that, but wont even bother to look it up for you, you’re literate yourself in the end. Anyway’s SLD heavily penalised all drugs and filled the prisons with users, stiffend the abortion laws and gave massive rights to the church, so they’re literally above the law since SLD’s last rule, and got a basis for a massive land grab.
I’d be offended if it wasn’t coming from a nobody.
Yeah, not like they have a choice. You claimed they roam the streets? Well, we throw a streetparty on their biggest day and amassment of fascist from all over Europe (11th of November, “march of independence”) and bring it up to some 200 meters from them. Police barricades block the way further, they ddnt even attempt an attack since some 9 years. That’s while holding 20:1 ratio, as they have government support and funding, and what we have for support in the west is mostly useless little shits like you.
On the other hand they did recently attempt to attack a 100k strong women’s march, only to get a dozen or more of themselves hospitalized. Here you go with one from that. Also here [1,2] you can have a ~150 football hools/nazis attacking my house some years ago. I’m clearly visible in all three, actually.
So how much you actually know about what’s going on in CEE? And for any comparison - what you been up to lately? Dressed up in a red bandana and got pushed around by the wind while attempting to fly a flag? Or haven’t even left your home? Meet any workers maybe, other than serving your useless fat ass?
For such cases, in polish we say “chujem jesteś, w dupie byłeś, gówno widziałeś” and I think it’s beautiful. EOT.
Maybe follow your own advice dude.
That’s just me stating my opinion of people like you. Nowhere do I try to discredit what you say based on what I think of you.
Here you go troll
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.8966&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time https://www.jstor.org/stable/2672986?seq=1
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/
Yeaaaah. I wonder how come people now live under bridges and eat out of dumpsters. I guess that’s what you call progress.
You literally said that capitalism is an improvement, and you never once acknowledged all the people who were left behind.
The truth of the discussion is that transition to capitalism created massive inequality, pushed masses of people into destitute conditions, and is now fuelling the rise of fascism.
Yeah weird how after communists have been suppressed and prosecuted across eastern Europe with parties being banned, organizing being prohibited, there aren’t many communists left.
Nobody cares if you’re offended. Just pointing out a simple fact that anti communists like you are facilitating literal fascists who will eventually get around to people like you too.
The fascists are in your government, control your means of production, own your police, and your military. But you keep on marching and thinking that’s gonna make a difference.
Sounds to me like you painting a self portrait there.
Only the last one ends with this little gem of an argument in your (dis)favour;
And of course does not compare the quality of life before and after collapse of state capitalism (or communism as you want to call it).
So, which one of these proves how life conditions dropped since the collapse of USSR and where? You might not have reached that level of education yet, but generally it’s in good fashion to reference particular pages. Seems very much like a hasty google search by basic keywords. You’re a bad joke, and so are your ‘arguments’.