I respect people’s right to use apple products, but please stop asserting “privacy”, big corps doesn’t give a shit.
Yeah, you can go with a Linux phone but forget about:
- controlling any IOT device
- using any smart watch/sport trakcer
- Android Auto or any remote car features
- mobile banking
- authenticating at work
- buying public transport tickets from your phone
- using apps for boarding pass when flying
- charging your car at most public chargers
- using any type of digital ID or documents
If you’re already a luddite that’s awesome, you’re free to move to Linux phones. If you like modern tech and the convenience it gave us it will be really fucking sad to lose all of it because or corporate greed.
Agreed, but is a chicken and egg problem. People won’t use Linux because the apps they want don’t support it and apps won’t support it because most people don’t use Linux. Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
The best way is freeing Android. Android should be the “Mobile Linux”. What should happen is that EU should ensure that people are allowed to side load and unlock bootloaders and that all apps are compatible with alternative ROMs. All dependencies on google play services should simply be made illegal and all apps should be fully compatible with AOSP.
If we can’t get this we will spend the next 10-15 years in mobile dark ages. Mobile Linux may never get enough tracking to be supported the way desktop Linux is.
I don’t think it’ll play out that way. Manufacturers aren’t going to ditch Google. Play Store and Google certification are too valuable for them. And for small developers, most of them rely on Google’s infrastructure. If the EU decides to take that away, only big players with resources could handle their own systems, which ironically makes things less open because indies get squeezed out.
If we skip the Play Services part, the EU might push for sideloading and more openness, but realistically Play Services will remain dominant simply because it’s the easiest and most convenient option for developers. So we’ll probably end up with a halfway solution: technically more open, but practically still dependent on Google.
If we really want change, proper GNU/Linux phones need to catch up or at least run Android apps (APKs) reliably. That alone would solve 70% of the problem. The remaining 30% comes down to infrastructure and right now Google Play Services is just too polished and convenient (especially for indies who don’t care about FOSS ideals) for devs to walk away from.
Manufacturers aren’t going to ditch Google. Play Store and Google certification are too valuable for them.
If legislation is made such that eg.: in the EU phones can not be registered in the cellular network unless they are open to both normal installation of apps (sIdElOaDiNg) and being able to fully install or remove Google Services, then Google will have to deal with who would want to work and pay to get a certification that effectively blocks you from selling and operating in one or more continents.
And such legislation would be not without precedent: open phones and custom ROMs are already suffering from it.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
I will admit I’m ignorant here. What do companies use Google Play Services for? I developed some Android app and I never had to rely on Google. I just used F-Droid. Other than play store for distribution, which services provided by Google would be so hard to replace?
Location services, geofencing, connectivity sign in, banking services… basically the walls of the garden
Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
Honestly that’s not a chicken-and-egg problem. Only one party of the two in this example has the power to create or change apps, whereas people in this example, even if they would use Linux, they effectively are prevented from.
The “someone” who has to cave in is obvious.
I used to run an LTE-enabled nettop instead of a phone during the app-only craze, can’t get any worse than that. Recently removed bank apps, taxi, delivery, maps, youtube, email and all social media apps off my phone in favour of using websites instead. They’re still a bit of an afterthought compared to apps so the experience is a bit clunky, but the option is available for most things nowadays.
Some things yes. I don’t have any social media apps (not even lemmy) or YT but my car charger requires an app, my AC has an app I use from time to time, my Garmin GPS has an app, I have to use MS Authenticator at work, my car has an app and Android Auto and 90% of public car charges require an app. None of this has website alternative. Can I live without them? Well, not without work obviously and where I live electric car infrastructure is so tied to mobile phones I’m seriously considering just giving up and going back to a normal car.
Don’t they have functioning Android app support now?
In theory yes but most non open source apps require google play services. Hard to tell how long those will work with waydroid and similar. Also running android apps this ways destroys battery apparently.
Most of this i don’t use my phone for anyway. I’ll use my current android phone for the rest, if needed.
Still going to wait and see if the Eu makes a move, but i won’t go back to fascist enabling corps.
Yeah, sadly I don’t see a way around it other than having spare Android/iOS phone.
For some time GrapheneOS should work just fine but when Google kills it we’re fucked.
The fact that there are only two operating systems and both are locked down is a major problem. Unless a company like Valve invests heavily in a linux phone it is unlikely to ever go mainstream enough for developer or device support.
We need governments and legislators to force these systems open. To enshrine the right to control the things you own and criminalize any attempt to curb people’s ownership or control. That is the first step. Once that’s in place, the environment for a third option to exist will be in place.
I’m sorry I’m not buying a Linux phone or similar for the same reason I’m not going to become a mechanic to drive a car. I want to activate my SIM card and go. Out of the box. I don’t want to have to know about kernel access side booting in dev mode. People like me are the primary user base for most devices.
After using GrapheneOS on a gigantic fucking Android pixel model, I think I’m gravitating back towards the third option and the iphone mini I haven’t dared to sell yet. I think I’ll just do the things that needs privacy on my computer in the future.
I hate the term sideloading. It’s a made-up propaganda word to make it seem scary or wrong to install software on your device. All in the name of corporate profits.
It’s like “jaywalking” oooh oh no don’t “jay” walk, don’t “side” load; conform to our business machines! Your natural existence and free movements are an inconvenience to us therefore you have to change.
Or whatever bullshit–however they couch it.
“Warning: If you unlock your phone, it might explode or you might become a terrorist. Also we won’t pay your money back even if there is faulty hardware because there is non zero chance you might have caused it while unlocking”
Yea, who are google and apple to tell us what to do with OUR devices that WE OWN anyways?
I will never buy a smartphone(or a computer) that I can’t replace the stock OS on, because the transaction for me and the device maker should end when I buy their device, period.
The entire business model of selling me a device only to then extract the maximum possible amount of data points, sell that data to fuck-knows-who(compromising my privacy, and possibly safety), and maximizing targeted ads to attempt to manipulate me is beyond absurd.
Ironically I own a Google device, but only to use an operating system that respects me and my choices. If Google was just providing device trees for their new phones…
Due to our favourite kind of software (banking apps) I am unable to use another kind of operating system at this point.
Also I don’t sideload. I install software on a computer that I own, because I paid actual money for it.
GraphenenOs?
There is no word called sideloding it’s called installing software
“Sideloading” means “defeating a walled garden to install software”
it doesn’t matter if apple cares about privacy. corpos shouldn’t have this data in the first place.
How are devs supposed to test their apps on devices before they publish?
They can upload their ID to google, pay $25 USD, and then sign their apps using their own signing key which was pre-approved by Google.
Its the same for apple, but I think their fees are like $99 per year.
There are also reports of Google potentially leaving in a ADB bypass for it.
First of all: writing this from my iPhone. I’ve been on various android phones, including flashed to Sailfish and alternative ROMs, and I kinda hate being on an iPhone now. But - it works.
Look at the incentives of Google and Apple. Google sells ads. That’s it. Any operation at Google other than that is just a small side hustle. Apple sells hardware and 30% commission on apps/media. Apple’s incentives to fuck over the privacy of individuals is far smaller than Google’s incentives. That’s it.
Let’s go through the list:
- Android vendors (Samsung et. al): Zero incentive to not sell you out. Also, no recurring revenue throughout device lifetime (except selling your data), so zero incentives to provide more than absolutely minimal software support after sale.
- Open Source ROMs: All the incentive, but zero funding or business model. Continually fighting against Google. Thus, not really an option for ”normal” people. I won’t hand my mother a flashed phone, and she won’t be able to flash one on her own.
- Sailfish: Had incentives and a business model. When I used it, the developers could barely keep the web browser patched. Tell me that’s good for privacy.
- Apple: Has incentives to patch and update older phones (recurring revenues from AppStore and iCloud), and doesn’t really sell any ads themselves.
Apple are anti-consumer assholes with a clear objective of creating lock-in under the guise of ”privacy” and ”security”, and they really want to force people into buying more hardware. Agreed. But they are the only major phone vendor that doesn’t have incentives to actively screw you over.
Is a flashed ROM ”better” for ”privacy”? Probably. Should you get your mother an iPhone? Yes.
Both Tim and Pinchai paid Donald Trump money to attend his inauguration and lick his ass on a daily basis. They both have one very big incentive to invade their user’s privacy: American fascism.
From the security standpoint and the patching standpoint, you are 100% straight on accurate.
Unfortunately, Apple Microsoft and Google all sell ads. They are also all working on training AI with your data.
The upside is, as far as ad companies go, they’re not just handing over the data that “bleachedbluejeans23@apple.com likes red squirrels to be vendors” They sell client code where the client pulls the ads directly from apple’s platform.
They’re all collecting dossiers on you. They have all identified you and their systems with whatever emails, payment cards, what have you that you use on their systems. And they have a database with all of your intimate desires and wishes and wants and how much money you make.
When Google started doing this, they threw up the don’t be evil banner. You can’t just give all this information to a company and then trust them not to use it forever.
Apple: Has incentives to patch and update older phones (recurring revenues from AppStore and iCloud), and doesn’t really sell any ads themselves.
Don’t fall for Apple PR, they sell you out like everyone else does: https://ads.apple.com/
Alternatively, get your mother an android phone and chuck /e/OS on it and tell her it’s an iPhone. She won’t know.
Linux Phone with waydroid is the way
“My iphone battery died again!? I guess I’ll have to buy another new phone. Why does this keep happening?” /s
I wanna run away to live with dogs like Diogenes. I’ll live in a basket and piss and shit in the streets. No spyware phone required.
Does anyone remember r/hailcorporate and its brief moment of fame before the popular subs banned mention of it and its own mods started running a crypto scam?
It was annoying. Couldn’t mention any brand name in any context without getting an “/r/hailcorporate” comment.
I liked that part of it anyway
Honestly haven’t heard that one. I’ve only heard “I used android for freedom. If android is becoming a shitty apple, I’ll just use the better apple”
That’s been my reason to switch. When Android 12 removed or hid a lot of the functionality and customization that I used daily on my Pixel 4a5g, I switched to an iPhone. It’s a shame I had to sell back my iphone 14 pro to my provider (due to the plan I had chosen), otherwise I’d have kept that one, but I’m currently running the 16 Pro, and intend to keep that for another 4 or 5 years.
That’s sort of where I’m at right now to be honest. Google has removed or plan to remove basically everything that gave Android an edge over iOS. Meanwhile Apple, for all their flaws, has actually put out some pretty compelling offerings with the iPhone 17 line both hardware- and software-wise, and has made meaningful improvements in the realm of repairability and side-loading, albeit under regulatory pressure. At this point, it’s looking like going to be harder than I’d like to choose between the two when I go to replace my phone in 3-5 years - provided both companies stay on their current trajectories.
Here’s how I think about it:
Google’s business model involves advertising to you, tracking your activity, mining your data, and selling that information to other entities while also using it to advertise to you more. It’s their main profit-driver. You are the product.
Apple’s business model is to sell you the hardware, give you the software and make it (mostly) depend on the services to keep you locked in. You (the user) are not the product, their devices and services are.
Of the two, which is the lesser evil?
Normies are not going to fully convert to Linux phones and open-source software any time soon. In the meantime as far as privacy is concerned, Apple can do much worse and Google can do much better.
apple stans are built different.
they will bend over backwards insistently to defend apple on every. single. issue. relentlessly.
apple marketing did get into their heads in a weird cultish kind of way. i’ve met a couple irl, they are kind of scary to think about.
Apple does give a shit about privacy… in the same way that companies care about gay pride. Right now privacy is still a selling point for Apple compared to other companies. This is why they are still so loud about on device AI and pretty much silent when any of their features require cloud processing. But am under no illusions that will remain the case forever.
As far as “dumb phones” are concerned; they don’t exist anymore. It’s still a device with an OS, GPS (as required by the law that created the Amber Alert here in the US), and an Internet connection, that makes calls using VoLTE or similar. Most of the ones you can buy today run things like KaiOS which has an App Store and comes with Google Maps preinstalled.
If you want real privacy you need to disconnect from the Internet which pretty much means no phones at all now that everything is VoIP.
Mostly agree except about disconnecting from the internet, classic SMS/voice calls aren’t any more private than VoIP.
Your best bet for location privacy is E2E encrypted services like Signal over wifi, plus MAC randomization and a VPN on untrusted networks. I’d say GrapheneOS is good enough for most people, but mobile Linux has also come a long way.
Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services. They’re not perfect by any means but they are by far a lesser evil.
A fully capable Linux phone is the dream, but most people aren’t going to use one. For the majority of people, I would recommend the company that refused to listen to the US and EU about weakening the security of their products over the one with the business model of relying on advertising to you and selling your data.
They just do that for brand optics. Because researchers found the apple privacy settings off/on made no difference to the packet of info sent to apple. Their privacy is a facade.
The issue in one of the cases (San Bernardino) had nothing to do with iCloud data, and everything to do with the data on the device itself. The FBI request was a backdoor into the device. Apple (rightly) refused to add a backdoor to access the phone.
You are referencing data that goes to Apple’s iCloud servers, which Apple was happy to provide because they held the encryption keys. Since then, they have enabled an E2E encryption feature for iCloud data.
I am happy to discuss Apple’s shortcomings, but let’s be clear on which ones we’re discussing
Its the don’t track privacy type settings where you opt out, research found it was a toggle button that did nothing.
They only tout privacy to gain market, they would sell us out for a dollar
Is this separate from Advanced Data Protection, which is E2E encrypted data on iCloud?
“Don’t track privacy type settings” isn’t very descriptive, so apologies if I’m sounding any way I’m just trying to be clear about what the complaint here is.
And to be clear, is this a privacy concern exclusive to Apple?
Totally unrelated to the E2E, I will have to search for it. It was a year or two ago. Apple claimed turning off the data collection kept your use private to you, but was just a lie, they collected all your data anyway.
And yes, its an IPhone setting not an android setting. Google is another issue.
Ok please let me know when you have more information I am very interested to know.
Was giving literal gold to Donald Trump part of that campaign to save the users?
And they have proven if the government makes a law requiring access they’ll do it. They have done it for China and Russia.
That’s literally any company though. If you want to legally operate in a certain country, you need to abide by the country’s laws. Sure, pirate FOSS projects could exist. But that’s not the kind of shit that will be sold in retail, because it would literally be illegal to sell.
This is like complaining that Japanese phones can’t disable the camera shutter sound. It’s because Japan regulated the shutter sound, because upskirting was a major issue. So phones legally sold in Japan are required to have the shutter sound permanently set at a high volume, even when the ringer is silenced. That isn’t the phone maker’s fault.
Apple campaigned against regulation like what you’re complaining about. It isn’t Apple’s fault that the regulation was passed anyways.
Well yeah they kinda have to at that point in order to continue conducting business in that country. What about this is specific to Apple?
