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Gonna get downvoted but fuck this.
The IDF is terrible, the Israeli government is terrible, it is genocidal and there is no excuse for that.
Yet, the IDF is mandatory for all 18yo in Israel, meaning that you could be completely against the IDF and the government, and still be in the IDF.
Imagine being an 18yo who sees the genocide, understands the that Israel is in the wrong, and is now forced to join the army that is in the process of a genocide, and immediately receiving a gun. Fucked up situation that might even lead someone to suicide, especially if maybe you are already in a dark place.
My point is that there are IDF soldiers that are absolutely genocidal, the IDF as an army is horrific, but because of mandatory conscription you can’t treat it the same as a voluntary army where people choose to be there (kinda, poverty and propaganda can often make it more complex)
Just as I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of a Russian just because of what Russia is doing, I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of an Israeli just because they were forced to join the IDF.
I think that these mindless celebrations of death jist fuel the cycle of hatred. If you support a genocide I have no compassion for you, but a forced conscription is not a choice.
Exactly. The people that are killing themselves are likely the people that had the most capacity for good in they entire establishment. It’s such a sad state of affairs.
Or instead of joining the IDF, you get the jail time of a few months.
But I guess they’re just following orders, so they’re actually absolved of the rape and genocide.
Sure, a few months in jail seems like an option, But there are 2 important factors here:
- Wether they are going to be combatants or not
- The fact that these are young adults / teens in a very normalized situation.
If you are 18yo and fresh out of school, understand that the IDF is in the wrong and condemn it but are now facing the choice between doing what society expects of you and going for 2-3 years of office work at the IDF or go against the law, go to jail for an unknown amount of months and possibly face social consequences, you might choose the office work. It does not obsolve you from all faults, but it does not make you genocidal or a rapist.
This approach of grouping everyone together is just adding more fuel to the fire. Everyone sticks their head in the sand and says “This is the problem, there is no nuance!” And guess what? Sometimes you will be more right and sometimes you will be more wrong, but you will very very rarely be correct.
There is no innocent IDF member, even if they were brainwashed into serving. Just following orders isn’t an excuse, we learned that via the Nuremberg trials.
I feel no sympathy for an IDF member, as I do for the American soldiers in Vietnam. Drafting doesn’t absolve you of war crimes, even if you feel guilty of it. People died, and it’s their fault.
Thats not a good example because in Nuremberg trials they specifically trialed generals and political leaders, which held positions that were directly related to the crimes, I don’t think generals in the IDF are remotely close to innocent.
But by putting a general who planned and executed war crimes and an office worker that maybe was responsible for office supplies in the same category, you are ignoring the reality of the situation and you are harming the severe and important definition of war crimes.
Your blind categorisation is harming your cause, which I assume is justice and protection of human rights and life.
Oh my bad, I’ll make sure that the people who moved papers covering up war crimes just didn’t follow orders before they go to trial.
It’s not just jail though. Like any society, their are expectations that come with being a participant in it. Shame, family and pressure make that solution not an easy choice. I get what you are saying, and it’s easy to say that from the outside. History tells us that much baggage comes with going against the norm. Power to you,just realize it has impacts beyond just ‘your’ life. Not saying that is a good thing, just that it is a thing.
Your point misses that it is not mandatory and they could instead go to gaol for short period of time rather than commit genocide and murder babies.
Your point is bad and your should feel bad for running defense and trying to paint them as innocent and/or victims.
Firstly I couldn’t find anything about “gaol” so I don’t know what you mean…
Secondly, armies are mostly non-combatant soldiers, which can range from working on weapons to office workers. As fucked up as the IDF is, if you are forced to join it and become an office worker, you might not be free of fault, but you are far from committing a genocide or murdering babies.
You saw a word you didn’t know and you didn’t try a dictionary or search engine?
I did search for it, I guess that I over did the search terms and should have just searched the word itself. Thanks! Word of the day I guess!
If my approach to understanding was so flawed as to fail at looking up a word I would be deeply concerned about the quality of my thinking.
Ignore all the arguments I made and just focus on a single unrelated mistake?
mate, you can’t even figure out what a word means. Everything you believe is suspect if your approach is that sloppy.
Fix your approach to learning, then form opinions.
The correlation of combatant suicide is commonplace, but increased severely in periods of fascism and genocide. Most people aren’t sociopaths but can still be persuaded, pressured, and/or conditioned to do terrible things. I’m surprised it’s not higher.
And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings and can’t live with them. This is not something to celebrate, these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers. But these cowards can’t even bring themselves to try and right their wrongs.
They’re not victims. They’re monsters who finally learned who they are but refuse to repent.
Are you ready to throw your life away and turn against everything you’ve learned in your life? This isn’t like Vietnam where you could get away with dropping a live grenade in the tent of your commanding officer because you are in the jungle with the next town 5 miles away; they are literally at home and every move against your own will end with you being subjected to a traitors treatment.
I’m pretty sure a lot of them are conscripts, since there’s a mandatory military draft with a duration of 2+ years. Those are young, inexperienced minds that are thrown into a machinery that has had decades of experience in how to make you do things you don’t want to do.
So yeah, they are victims: victims of propaganda, victims of a military complex that knows how to break you. If you want to damn someone do it with those that keep on killing innocents, not those who kill themselves so they don’t have to do more killing.
Are you ready to throw your life away and turn against everything you’ve learned in your life?
I’m not a monstrous piece of shit so I’ll never find myself in this kind of situation. There is not a single moment in my life where I have supported the military actions of the US despite living in the Imperial core, and it’s not like my parents were anti-war hippies or something.
Victims of propaganda
The only victims of their propaganda that I care about are the innocent people they’ve slaughtered.
I don’t think you realize that you are blessed that you didn’t grow up in Israel. Refusing to serve because of your conscience gets you an exemption in 10% of cases there. The 90% who didn’t want to serve but had no other choice are not monsters, they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Even those who got lucky and didn’t have to serve lose most of their job chances and are branded as undemocratic and traitors - even the “leftwing”-Israelis look down on the “refuseniks”. If you flee your country to dodge the draft, you can never come back, leaving behind everyone who you hold dear.
You can call what most of them DO monstrous (and i agree fully), but they are still human beings. And to feel such remorse that you take your own life is very human - more than any of those who continue to kill can ever be.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers.
Sooo… like that thing Aaron Bushnell didn’t do?
Aaron Bushnell didn’t just kill himself. He transformed his death into a protest. He didn’t just go quietly in the comfort of his own home. He picked one of the worst ways to go, in public, and made it known without a shadow of a doubt what he died for.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers, but he did at least do something positive with his suicide… unlike IDF soldiers. How many IDF soldiers have made their suicides a protest? Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves, it’s because killing Palestinians is “icky” and they can’t deal with it, not because they consider Palestinians worthy of being mourned.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers,
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers. Instead, he decided to be flashy.
Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves,
Are you normally this much of an expert on suicides committed by people half-way around the world? Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
The suicide rates among IDF personal is - perhaps - a positive indicator of the pressure Israeli society is under. That is all it is - figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers.
Could he have? I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but my understanding is that these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel. But even if he could have done more…at least he did something. At least he tried. These IDF soldiers are doing absolutely nothing. They’re not even trying.
Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
Okay but Pissrael is a first-world country that claims to hold liberal views. So even if I made such a projection of first-world, liberal values onto my analysis of IDF soldiers… I haven’t actually lost anything in the projection, because they are first-world liberals.
figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s grave as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel.
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism - but I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
But even if he could have done more…at least he did something.
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right? That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
Since you and most people commenting here are such experts on why military vets off themselves it should be easy for you to say, right?
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s
I’m not the one using Bushnell’s death as a cheap propaganda prop - and no, I don’t give a flying fuck if it was his intention to be used as such.
as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings
these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Aw hell the fuck no! IDF soldiers are not fucking victims of their own actions. For fuck’s sake please tell me I misread that 🤮
There will be a non-zero amount of soldiers who didn’t choose this - Israel has a mandatory military draft of 2 years for men and women, with some roles having to serve additional time. Once you are drafted, you will be pressured into things, and with “Shooting and Crying” you’ve shown a propaganda tool used to prime the civilian population for exactly this - following orders even when your conscience says it’s wrong to do so.
So yeah, i stand by my statement that IDF Soldiers who kill themselves because they can’t live with what they’ve witnessed are victims of the same machinery that kills children in the strip.
People who get non-combat jobs are unlikely to kill themselves over their service.
following orders even when your conscience says it’s wrong to do so.
Not an excuse.
So yeah, i stand by my statement that IDF Soldiers who kill themselves because they can’t live with what they’ve witnessed are victims of the same machinery that kills children in the strip.
Oh my God no, choosing to take your own life out of guilt from the actions of the army you served in is not morally equivalent to a child being obliterated by said army. Please I’m trying to be patient here
It’s not an excuse, it’s what is expected of them, and what is drilled into their brains through multiple channels while growing up, cranked up to 11 the moment the military gets their hands on them - and they get the majority of the population in their hands. Refusing to serve on conscientious grounds has only a 10% chance of being exempted. So yeah, the chance that those who kill themselves didn’t want to serve is pretty high.
Even those who refuse and are lucky to get an exemption pay a heavy price, with their job prospects shot to hell and their standing in society reduced to traitor. Not even the left wing in Israel supports them.
Israel’s military, state and how they are interwoven is not comparable to anything else i have ever heard of in my life. In most of the world you can either not enlist or it has no real repercussions on your civilian life if you refuse to serve (in my country you are not allowed to get a gun license for - i think it’s 25 years? - if you refuse to serve and have to do a 3 months longer civil service instead)
Even those who refuse and are lucky to get an exemption pay a heavy price, with their job prospects shot to hell and their standing in society reduced to traitor. Not even the left wing in Israel supports them.
Unironically yes, taking the L and tanking the consequences is the only moral thing to do in that situation holy shit. If it’s serve in the IDF or {insert consequence here}, you take {insert consequence here}. It’s literally that simple 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦
This is not NK, those IDF soldiers can refuse.
Apparently spending some time in gaol is less preferable to committing genocide to them.
They can try to refuse; Wikipedia says that 9,5% of the people who refuse on conscientious grounds are allowed to. Not serving will also wreck your chance to a normal life; Most jobs want only people who have served and completed their compulsory military service, and you are branded as a “refusenik”. Dodging the draft will get you a travel ban; you can’t even leave the country. So if your parents don’t do the smart thing and send you off before the draft, you are fucked; and if you leave, you can’t come back if you dont want to serve. Those are pretty shitty options if you just want to live your life in peace. It’s not NK, but it’s not comparable to any military in the west.
Oh no not missed job opportunities, those poor victims.
Israel is the real victim of the genocide of the Palestinian people!
Nice that you ignore the 90% that dont get the chance to refuse.
Most people aren’t sociopaths but can still be persuaded, pressured, and/or conditioned to do terrible things.
It’s actually quite easy when the conditioning starts at birth… the way it does in Israel.
i would much prefer people who did horrible things to change their ways, and work towards healing the world rather than kill themselves
Sure, but you aren’t going to see me shedding tears over dead fascists.
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And I’d like to live in a magical floating castle. At least a dead IDF today will save a life tomorrow.
Okay, but let’s at least try to remember that there is mandatory conscription and service in Israel and that there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF. I am in no way attempting to excuse genocidal and homicidal actions that anyone has taken, but let’s at least attempt to understand the complexity of the issue instead of trying to reduce things to an unnaturally binary state.
Life is infinitely complex. Let’s use the wonderful tools of understanding that complex evolutionary pathways have afforded us to try to scratch the surface of that infinity. Empathy is strength; don’t let right-wing propaganda teach you that it is a weakness.
They literally have other choices than joining the IDF. That choice is gaol, instead they choose to commit genocide.
Fuck them all, zero sympathy for Nazis.
Exactly the excuse “oh I had to make that choice or else I would have suffered” is so lacking in solidarity that it’s infuriating.
This is how hierarchy maintains its power, by saying “hurt them or we will hurt you; do what we say or else”; making people believe it is acceptable to sacrifice the lives of others to remain safe under the current system. Their power is entirely predicated on people having that fear keeping them in line and obeying their orders.
We’ve seen now what happens in Israeli gaols - I can only imagine that they’d treat perceived “traitors” the same as Palestinians; perhaps worse.
They don’t deserve our sympathy, but they definitely deserve empathy. Choosing to turn off your empathy for groups of people is sociopathy and that’s a road I’m unwilling to go down.
there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF
fuck that genocide-enabling noise. if your choices are to go to prison or take part in mass murder of innocents, then you don’t get a pass for opting to kill people to save yourself some discomfort.
I don’t disagree with you, but let’s try to at least understand the complexity of those decisions instead of viewing the world in black/white. That sort of thinking breeds fascism and authoritarianism.
TIL that saying people should go to jail instead of being Nazis makes me a Nazi.
I don’t disagree with you
Then don’t double down on genocide apologia. It’s really that fucking simple.
I am not engaging in genocidal apologia. Just because someone isn’t as hard-line as you are doesn’t mean that they’re opposed to you. Viewpoints are held on spectra because life doesn’t exist in binary states; it exists on spectra.
I hate the Israeli regime. I hate Zionism. I don’t believe that the state of Israel should exist. I think Benjamin Netanyahu and his ilk should be gaoled for the rest of their lives. I sympathise and empathise with the innocent people of Palestine and would love to see their sovereignty established and upheld by the international community.
I also believe that celebrating the suicide of IDF members is a fraught and dangerous precedent.
One can understand the complexity of a circumstance without ‘picking a side’. One can understand that humanity is complex, nuanced and difficult to understand. One can abhor the actions of a person while trying to better understand the motivations for that action. One can walk and chew gum.
There was germans who faced execusion for not following orders and protecting jews. Yet we didn’t give any excuses for people forced into the germany Nazi army
And perhaps more nuance should have been taken in those situations. Self-preservation is a basic human instinct and I would wager that many good people, when faced with the choice between kill someone else or be killed, would at the very least be extremely conflicted about that choice.
Just because we did something 70 years ago doesn’t mean we should be doing it now. Tradition is often a smokescreen for oppression. Let’s try and do better than our forebears and attempt to understand those who oppose us.
You can justify hamas was crimes will the same bullshit.
Self preservation would have been to refuse to serve to choose jail over killing babies and risking your own life
I’m not trying to justify anything - nowhere have I stated that any action that IDF soldiers or Hamas fighters have taken are justifiable. It’s an extremely messy, complex and convoluted set of circumstances and it does no one any service to attempt to simplify and boil down what has happened and what is happening to simple, binary soundbites.
I’m just trying to inject some empathy into this discussion. I understand that not everyone has a great capacity for empathy - particularly towards those who appear to have no empathy themselves - but to allow those who we oppose to turn us into death-hungry monsters is allowing them to harm us. I won’t allow the atrocities and war crimes to turn me into someone who cheers for death.
You only hear that bullshit when talking about the oppresors of palestinians. I never heard that excuse about russian soldiers. I never saw anybody critising rhe celebration of the death of war criminals like Dick Cheney
Tomorrow when you wrote that is a Friday, and IDF are disprop{rtionately Jewish.
Literally the day of the week you are least likely to be correct.
Today is Saturday, when I wrote that it was Friday. Timezones.
Even your pedantry is wrong.
Sorry, no. There’s only one valid time zone. Thats how this works and everyone else is wrong/lying. I don’t know how you’re all so committed to this.
But if they’re not gonna change, this isn’t a bad alternative to your thing.
IMO this is addressed to the IDF soldiers who refuse to change their ways.
I disagree, they should be doing murder suicides with their commanding officers.
fragging is cooler but i’ll take it
wow that sucks
spoiler
That it’s not more
I much prefer seeing them go out in a grainy video with a red triangle over their heads, but I’ll take suicide in a pinch.
One of the few reasons I encourage suicide.
Sure, watching them get mowed down is more satisfying, but I will take every IDF, Nazi, and fascist death literally no matter what the circumstance is, except deaths that involve actual decent people going down with them. With the exception to the exception of good people sacrificing themselves specifically in order to take out the maximum number they can with them.
o7
But all you IDF morons should feel bad, and you should definitely teamkill as many as possible before killing yourselves. Bonus points off you get good footage. Extra bonus for backflip.
Some day the best outcome is 0% of evil remaining, but I prefer 100% evil mortality rate. Don’t leave room to presume rehabilitation is possible. That effort isn’t worth it.
We need it to be even higher.
To be clear, if you personally commit a hate crime murder or rape:
Don’t kill yourself. You’re still human. Fix your shit, find out what made you suck, and do everything you can to compensate for how much you fucked up the world.
If you join the industrial hate crime rape extermination factory on purpose, when you could have run or spent a month in prison instead: You cannot be redeemed, you cannot be of value to humanity, and you can never be human again, if you ever were. The only thing left to you is to killeveryone who made you what you are, and then yourself. Please hurry; every moment you continue to exist defiles the world.
Wonder what would have happened if Bob Vylan had chanted
“Suicide to the IDF” at Glastonbury instead
Yeah, death to all the 18 year old conscripts who are literally forced to join the IDF to commit atrocities (forced conscription), while also being blasted pro-war propaganda by their national bourgeois.
Kill kill kill I love murder I love suicides I love dehumanizing I love proletariat blood flowing if they happen to be on the bad side.
You know people can refuse right? the state doesn’t torture their families or anything.
Kill kill kill I love murder I love suicides I love dehumanizing I love proletariat blood flowing if they happen to be on the bad side.
Yeah that’s why I feel just horrible whenever working class Nazis get killed because working class people can do no wrong /s
I have met people who left rather than join. I have seen posts from people saying ‘I was in prison because i refused to’. Those are people. Those people deserve out compassion, and support if they need it despite where they were born.
These mother fuckers? No. Sorry. You join, I will never be sad about you dying. I may find it funny.
proletariat
Lol these are fucking colonizers
kill kill kill I love murder I love suicides
Mods?
proletariat
Again, are you fuvking high? Do you know what that fucking word means? Colonizers do not create. They exploit.
the bad side
Hey, so, what makes them the bad side, do you think? Is it the genocide, the passion for rape, the laboratory of oppression, or the fact many of them practice circumcision and I’m just a combination antisemite foreskin enjoyer?
have you seen what they do to kids in elementary schools there? they literally brainwash them into being genocidal….
then if they refuse military service they go to prison.
suicide means they’ve been emotionally destroyed by what they’ve had to do… it makes sense, by the time it really sinks in they’ve already killed innocent people.
they’re all people.
it’s better than them killing more innocent people, but it’s nothing to revel in.
some of the soldiers are genocidal maniacs, but i don’t think they’re the ones offing themselves
Deserting and draft evasion are options. Not saying it’s easy as there are consequences but it’s the obvious moral choice.
Deserting and draft evasion are options for the privileged.
FTFY.
If you can’t get out of the country or otherwise disappear, you can just spend your time in prison rather than serving. That’s an option open to any Israeli.
you can just spend your time in prison rather than serving.
Still only an option for the privileged - any Israeli who does that had better come from a rich enough family to keep them safe in that jail. I remember what they did to conscientous objectors here in Apartheid-South Africa - not pretty. And Israel is probably far, far worse in that regard.
You first-worlders do not understand what being born into a militarised fascist state is all about.
You are just making shit up to defend the honor of IDF pawns. They detain conscious objectors for a few weeks than try to recruit them again.
You think actual fascism works the way it’s portrayed in the video games you play, dipshit?
We literally had a conscientous objector living in one of the streets of one of the towns I lived in as a kid - I guess he picked up the disabling brain damage due to all the “kid glove” treatment you assume he got?
I’ve read articles published by and about conscious objectors rather than just making shit up…
You do get that if I threaten to kill you unless you kill more people that you are actually culpable if you take the latter option right?
You do get that if I threaten to kill you
Fascists are not 80s cartoon villains.
that you are actually culpable
Of course - even if that’s irrelevant. Why do you think they broadcast their war crimes for the entire world to see? I’ll tell you why… they are spreading the culpability around. It’s a very fascist thing to do.
You legitimately suck at argumentation and writing.
If they refuse to serve, do they go to gaol or get executed?
Yes, they do prison time, but IIRC it’s only a few months.
look at this fucking shithead.
Hey, I’m not the one wishing for forced conscripts to commit mass suicide
Oh well, maybe if they refused and got jailed instead we’d wish the ZioNazis better. The IDF is nothing but a colonialist mass raping genocide machine.
Nobody is forced. I would take jail time over killing babies any day of the year
Nah, you’re the one complaining that the Nazis were just following orders. You’re a real piece of shit.
Fail opinion, get a better one
Yes, death to the IDF. Fuck every single one of them.
Wah wah wah I could have refused to commit war crimes but I did them anyway now I feel bad waaaaaah.
Unlimited suicides on the IDF.
‘Proletarian’ colonizers, benefiting from apartheid. Shut up
Imagine if this people have talk to each other and discover that they where not the issue but they officer was
Do you consider yourself a hateful person?
I hate genociders, yes.
The disturbing part is that you apparently don’t.
Do you think more IDF soldiers putting guns in their mouths is going to make life better for the Palestinians?
yes. but first I hope they put the guns in their compatriots mouths. don’t just kill yourself, kill a few other soldiers while you’re at it. be productive.
Do you not?!?
100% yes. Every dead IDF around is one less to commit genocide.
Why do you support Nazis wellbeing?
Never said I support Nazis wellbeing.
You don’t seem worth talking toOh sorry, the words are so interchangeable.
Why do you support Zionists wellbeing?
One soldier less, 10 palestinians saved. You should think about the palestinians who saw their family members brutally murdered by those soldiers
