Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
The problem is a lot of people don’t differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i’ve seen some straight up ‘they had it coming’ style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
But that’s how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn’t, you call them a hypocrite.
No child is to blame about any of this. And when I think about this (i’m sorry) very stupid conflict, all I can think is people killing children because of land. FUCKING DIRT. Not a specific people, just people, humans, killing children becuase a piece o land, that to be fair it fits everyone! That is of a stupidity that I can not fathom
Yes, it’s really just about how the land is called and who makes the rules. There are Israelis living in Palestine and Palestinians are citizens of Israel already.
It’s dumb af
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
I’m talking about commentary i’ve seen. People very careful to say ‘i’m not an antisemite buuuuuuut’
Yeah. Sure.
Yeah no. These two should be disconnected.
dude if you go “I’m not an antisemite but those festival goers absolutely had it coming” then you are at the very least an utter cunt.
Wasn’t saying that. Was saying that being antisemite and condemning Israel’s actions are two different things.
and I was pointing out that some people are using this as an opportunity to be antisemitic. Calling israel out on its bullshit is one thing, but we’re legit seeing people saying the victims of the attack had it coming for being israelis having a festival relatively near gaza.
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
IDK about the person you’re responding to, but
who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
There are a lot of Jews that don’t fit into either of those categories. Ethnic and cultural Jewish people that don’t practice or believe in Judaism as a religion are very common. I call myself Jewish, because my mother and my grandmother are Jewish, but I don’t practice the religion. I’d recommend googling Jewish Atheism and Jewish Secularism for more info.
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
There are still people alive on both sides that lived through Zionist conflicts with the British Mandate and the Nakba.
Literally kicked Bibi out, and he got back into power. It’s crazy.
Many of the Comments I had to read on Lemmy.ml were like „Israelian Civilians deserved that Terror attack“ so make of that what you like.
I’m one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people’s right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won’t stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
Then how about your government stop killing and abusing Palestinians. It’s almost as if decades of apartheid oppression, murder, and human rights abuses have consequences
They specifically stated that they where attending anti-governmsnt protests. 🙄
Awh that’s great! They’ve attended anti government protests. I guess we can ignore the call for a heavy handed ruthless response in retaliation in that same comment or the implicit support of their government’s ongoing role in the bombing and murder of civilians. Also, nowhere did I see them specifically decrying their government over the Gaza response, only in response to “corruption”
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I would say isreal has a right to defend itself, but not if they keep stealing land and oppressing the people who attack them.
If you want to defend yourself, first, you have to stop attacking the people who you claim to be defending against.
Hamnas is human garbage, but one can not separate the creation of Israel from the ghettoizing of the Palestinian people.
Nobody deserves terrorist attacks, but this didn’t come out of the blue.
Isreal needs to own up to it’s complicity in the violence before they try to claim to be the sole victims of it.
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when people start going on about it?
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It’s impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn’t about religion, or even very much about race. It’s about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn’t make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel’s founding.
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take.
There is some history to back this up, especially among older folks. I know I’ve heard a few irl antisemitic tirades start off with a testing of the waters by complaining about Zionists
Although for real, Jewish people are cool and great, but fuck Zionists.
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it’s very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here’s an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Often it’s real antisemitism, yeah
I’m a big proponent of understanding folk better. Zionism is one of those terms with subtext. Acquaintances I know who use it (some of whom I can believe not understanding the subtext) do a better job explaining that they don’t support ethnostates rather than they don’t support zionism.
But to be fair my experience is mostly people half a globe away trying to look like they’re staying current and relevant in the news and trying to show sympathy with people they view as oppressed and hurt, without taking the time to truly dig into the history of the conflict and having never even heard the word intifada. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt while sharing with them the tiny bit I’ve learned. They do the same for me. We’ve got a wide variety of views at one of my lunch groups and it’s phenomenal.
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That’s just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they’re enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don’t know if there’s any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn’t lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.
There is no argument for “both sides bad” when one side is currently right now this instant blowing up hospitals, schools, and children. One side is objectively worse and it’s the side hiding behind the skirts of “antisemitism” as they carry out an Arabic genocide
I disagree.
Both sides are bad, no matter who is currently the aggressor.
Now because there is aggression, the aggressor has an obligation to stop it, and we have an obligation to force a stop in the conflict as well. But that doesn’t make the other party less Bad in this. Both sides killed a lot of innocent people, both have inhumane ulterior motives and both are supporting further escalation. But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
This distinction is very important to me, because you are not suddenly the good guy because you stopped killing civilians. You are just not actively doing war crimes which means we don’t have to intervene because of you anymore, which is at least one less reason. But you are not holy because “this year it was only 300 war crimes”.
“Both have inhuman ulterior motives”
Palestine wants to be free
Israel wants to genocide Palestine and live in their homes
Yes I can see how wanting liberty and self governance is exactly the same as wanting more land for your historically landless people regardless of how many natives you have to kill. Completely balanced
The attacks weren’t perpetrated by a free Palestinian people or some recognized advocacy group, but by an extremist wing of the Muslim Brotherhood that has been pushed by Israel for decades.
Palestine voted Hamas, whose founding documents are dripping with antisemitism (they cite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion which isn’t so much a dogwhistle as it is a klaxon), into power.
If you’re a democracy, you’re responsible for whom you vote in. You want a war, you gamble with your constituents’ lives (and those of their children).
So forcing an entire people’s into ghettos and taking their land, while putting them under blockade and only reluctantly letting I’m small amounts of aid and food, all while bombing them weekly is actually good, because sometimes they fight back, making them the aggressor?
The post you replied to called no actor in this good. That’s your own forced dichotomy. To condemn an act does not mean you condone every act taken in response.
But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
Hamas never stopped fighting and they still have about 200 hostages. What makes you think that the IDF would stop fighting now?
What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?
They’re also doing more harm than good. This is an immensley complicated situation that requires nuance.
Dare I say all this could have been avoided if they weren’t mistreated for nearly 70 years?
What about people ignoring the possibility of a comet hitting the earth?
What about the second coming of Jesus?
The christian churches around the world would hate that. He’d hand their asses to them for being backwards bigots and overall betrayers of his message.
I’m extremely curious what you see as the complete history.
I don’t see how European guilt for allowing a genocide excuses another.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu’s government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
This is probably the only time I will agree with the “both sides” take on this. My view on this is that it doesn’t mean I agree with killing innocents though. People at the top doing terrible things is no reason to condemn a whole people who very likely had little say in the matter.
If there’s one issue, ever, that you should be at least a little “both sides” on, it’s this one.
There’s no way you can honestly argue only one side of this.
You can if you are racist
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people.
The current state of the Israeli government and the intense fascist impulse driving its leaders to genocide would suggest “the average (enfranchised) Israeli” is maybe not as fine or as nice as we’d like to believe.
Engaging with any kind of online community of Israelis feels like I’m stepping into a Der Sturmer article, what with all the intense hate and vitriol aimed at virtually any non-Israeli.
Hamas leadership are monsters
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names. Is it the head of UNWRA? The chief physician at the Al-Shifa Hospital? The press editor at Al Jaazera magazine? The folks working at the World Central Kitchen?
Because I’ve heard all of these organizations are hosting Hamas leadership. I’ve yet to hear anything else about them that explains why they deserved to die, other than that they’re “Hamas Leadership” and “Hamas Leadership are monsters”.
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad from this article, who can talk a big talk from the safety of outside Palestine and ignore their people’s suffering.
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception calling everyone and anyone that disagrees with their genocidal tactics as a Hamas sympathizer. Yeah and I’m of the stance that Israeli has had no business being in there for months and are actively commiting genocide, killing a massive excess of civilians and disrupting humanitarian aid.
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine who are equally blind to Palestinian suffering for a higher cause as the Israeli extremist government is.
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazi_Hamad#Dialogue_with_G._Baskin_(Israel)
It sounds like Hamad has been instrumental in back channeling communications with the Israeli government. Also looks like he wasn’t in Gaza during the Al Aqsa Flood. Is he ignoring his neighbors’ suffering by reestablishing dialogue with his Israeli colleague and trying to end the hostilities? Or was he supposed to fling himself onto the bayonets at the Israel-Lebanon border after Gaza was sealed off by the Israelis?
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception
You’re citing an article from the NYPost, so you clearly don’t mind at least a little bit of their lies and deception. You’ve picked out a guy who appears to be some kind of underground media publisher, amateur medic, and glorified border guard as a party leader and a “monster”.
Is there anything you’re citing more monstrous than his hatred of Israel?
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine
To my knowledge, hardcore religious evangelicals in the US aren’t traditionally kettled in an open air prison and subject to targeted assassinations on the whims of New Atheist military commanders. I’m willing to give a guy like David Koresh a bit of leeway in his hatred of the American government, if for no other reason than the FBI surrounded his house and killed a dozen of his friends. I have significantly less sympathy for your Jerry Falwell Jrs and your James Dobsons.
I’ve got a family friend who lost 23 members of her immediate family in the course of a weekend, when the Israeli government began its carpet bombing of Gaza City. If she went into a full blown Mein Kempf rant after that, I could hardly blame her. But to claim she’s somehow a warmonger for hating the people who obliterated half her family tree?
Did we hold Americans to that standard after 9/11?
You wanted names of someone spouting violent rhetoric on the Palestinian side, I gave you one. Has nothing to do with UNWRA, World Kitchen, MSF or journalists. All reasons and justification are set aside.
Many did protest the disproportionate response to 9/11, and Americans still face many repercussions today in the privacy of their daily lives.
I agree with you on what you’re saying. In my eyes the Israeli military’s actions are very, very far from justifiable at this point in time. I’ll remind you that it has been 8 months from when I wrote the original comment in October, before the WCK event in April, UNRWA defunding in January and several bombings of refugee camps between November and May. I don’t see a reason to continue to have an argument over this.
You wanted names of someone spouting violent rhetoric
I did not ask for that at all. You substituted him in because he’s the worst person you could find with a Google search.
I did not ask for that at all.
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names.
I apologize if I interpreted this question from you incorrectly. I’d tried to respond in good faith to you in this months old thread, but after 3 argumentative replies my patience has run thin. Have a good day.
I’m a Jew and pretty sensitive to antisemitism, even dogwhistles. I admit I don’t go to lemmy.ml very often, but from what I’ve seen from lemmy.ml posters posting on lemmy.world, there’s been no antisemitism at all. In fact, I have not seen any antisemitism from anyone here that I can recall, which is pretty amazing in and of itself.
Opposition to Israel’s genocidal regime is not antisemitism.
If this had been Reddit, I’d have bought credits to award you a gold star.
Hold on a second…
Thank you!
Yeah. I am really sick of seeing the argument that any condemnation of the government of Israel is anti-Semitic. It has nothing to do with them being Jewish and everything to do with how they have handled that conflict over the years.
Out of the loop, what do dogwhistles mean regarding antisemitism?
Saying things that aren’t explicitly antisemitic but are basically hidden code for antisemitism. Such as “Globalists.”
See also major conspiracy theories implying there is a group of secret overlords who control everything behind the scenes.
Any time the supposed responsible party for some conspiracy is an unspecified they/them, that’s usually a sign that they’re trying to be sneaky about serving you a rewrite of blood libel.
Just as a sidenote, whoever wrote the Disney Secret Invasion story needs a hard looking at.
This might sound a bit dorky, but bear with me for a moment.
So in the comics, the Kree Empire vs Skrull Empire is this big, galactic conflict that’s been going on forever, right? Occasionally one side will invade Earth for reasons, everyone has a fun time punching things, that’s it.
Two empires that suck equal amounts hitting each other in space. Good clean nerd fun.
Disney, a company founded by a notorious anti-semite, decided with the MCU that they should make the Skrull refugee victims of a genocide.
Okay, sure, that’s okay, it addresses real world issues, it’s a good message for the kids, imperialism bad, refugees are people too, right?
Hey.
Wait a minute.
Aren’t the Skrull shape shifting lizard people?
A fringe conspiracy theory that after a brief inspection always turns out to be a code for “Jewish people?”
So… Now we have the Disney (((Skrulls))), refugee genocide victims of the Space Nazis.
Okay. Well, that’s not too bad, but obviously they’re going to need to reveal that the Skrull Empire is still a thing in space, right? Because having the Skrull refugees do the Secret Invasion story would be kind of fucked up, but that’s easy to fix, you just make them the survivors of a single planet from…
Nope. The refugees are now taking over Earth by replacing leaders with (((Skrulls))).
Oh, look. Episode Two.
“The (((Skrulls))) were a worse threat than Hydra! You know, the literal Nazis!”
Ironic since Captain Marvel gave me the impression that the Skrull were being coded as Palestinians, down to the oppressive force labeling them all terrorists.
Yeah, until they went off the rails with Secret Invasion you could easily have just assumed it was a simple refugee analogy that someone didn’t think all the way through.
Of course, even if the writers would be horrified to learn what the conspiracy types actually mean by shape shifting lizard men, that would still leave Secret Invasion with the core plot that refugees are an existential threat worse than secret Nazis, so they can fuck off regardless.
bit of a stretch
Go actually look at the .ml worldnews community. There is full mask off “death to Israel” shit all over the place.
“Death to Israel” is also not antisemitic. Jews are not Israelis and Israelis are not Jews. I am not an Israeli. I have no ties or allegiances to Israel, nor do I want them. I think “death to Israel” is an extremist viewpoint, but not an antisemitic one.
Depends on who’s saying it, but not necessarily an anti-semitic phrase, sure.
When shouted by some dude at a campus protest in a nation two thousand miles away, probably not.
However, when Hamas or the Houthis say it, it definitely is.
Is it anti-Semitic when a Semite calls for the killing of a different group of Semites?
1: Kind of like saying there can’t be white on white racism.
2: Only nerds know that Palestinians and Arabs in general are also Semitic.
It does rather point out how stupid all this irredentism is though. These are ultimately all descendants of the same peoples, killing each other over the same God.
Judaism is not Zionism and vice versa
I thougnt at this point everyone understands that state N is not Nians.
You should go to Indonesia and feel the anti Jew from the second you land. 🤭
Mind that the antisemitism always comes from Muslims, non Muslims would do nothing
Criticizing. Israel. Is. Not. Anti-semitism.
Is criticizing Saudi Arabia “Islamophobia”?
Putin’s propaganda wants russians to belive that criticizing Putin is rusophobia. This post looks exactly like Putin’s propaganda.
I hate Russia though, I’m proud of that
Then kiss with Putin, he hates Russia too
I agree…It’s a tense situation but words have meaning. Anti-Netanyahu does not mean Antisemitism.
Apparently criticising Ukraine is unacceptable though
Oh, do you talk a lot about their corruption scandals?
I know nothing about anything bad Ukraine has done, I don’t follow the war as much as I used to. I just see a lot of downvotes on anything critical of Ukraine
Probably because all criticism seems to come from people with a clear and contemptible agenda, even when it’s true, and it often isn’t.
There’s plenty of room for critical support but the critics mostly just seem to be cheering for the invasion. Probably because all the fair criticism revolves around the fact that war is hell.
I wouldn’t say all criticism is from people with contemptible adgenda. That’s a hyperbolic statement, it could be received like that by the reader but it’s prejudiced for people who try to remain as fair as possible.
The war is a complete shitfest for all humans involved it’s awful thing its endured all this time but unfortunately as a comfortable westerner, I think it’s the right thing for ukraine right now to stand up for their rights.
My point is UK and US have done some unspeakable things but history is written by the winners and we’re not taught about the atrocities our allies have done in previous wars. As a brit Dresden springs to mind and I wonder if Ukraine will have any similar controversies spring up after the war. We fucking killed 25,000 people with basically no justification.
With risk of sounding like a dick I’m going to ask you a question (sorry my directness can come across as being rude) Does my comment make me a person who has a “clear and contemptible adgenda” to you? I know I’ll get downvoted by others but I’m more interested in your opinion
You need to be more specific. There are some valid criticism that can be pointed at Ukraine, but if the criticism is along the lines of “Nazi Ukraine” then that’s just perpetuating Russian propaganda and should be downvoted. Most of the criticism of Ukraine I’ve seen falls squarely in the Russian propaganda camp.
While they’re waging a war against the country that’s known for its troll factories[0] and long traditions in information warfare, just downmodding all negativity against Ukraine is sort of a safe bet.
You might want to note that for things that matter, like corruption that blocks actual EU membership, the negativity still exists and is legit.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Information/dp/1632461293
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism.
Some people wants every body human rights to be respected, and dennounce crimes against humanity that Israel and Hamas commits, one being an alleged country and the other a terrorist organization.
The right for self determination of Palestinians (and to live) is not being respected by Israel, so, with confidence I will say Free Palestine!
What’s funny is that Palestinians are literally Semitic
Dumbass comment. Thanks!
Not this bullshit.
“Antisemitism” as a term refers to hatred of Jews. That’s the common definition. You don’t get to hide behind your neckbeard “Well ackshyully”. Try again.
ay man shut up lmfao
I think your tone is why you are getting down voted. You actually come off as the neckbeard with permanent Cheeto cheese stains on their fingers and half chewed food flying out of your mouth as you type.
The term antisemitism was created in Germany as a scientific sounding name for Judenhass(Jew Hatred).
Even though the root of Semite means people of the Semitic language group the usage of antisemitism has always been towards the Jews alone.
I’m a linguist by education. I’m used to people being startlingly wrong about language (pop coverage of the field is utterly abysmal) and when someone tries to play the “I cAn’T bE aNtIsEmItIc, I’m A sEmItE” card (to say nothing of right-wing nationalists who think their language is Perfect and the Ancestor of All Languages), I get hot and bothered.
Zionism became a thing when antisemitism was really bad.
Israel became a thing when antisemitism went over itself and even casual antisemites looked in horror at what Nazis had done.
The Palestinian problem today is nested within centuries of the problem of antisemitism, coiling around and biting itself in the tail.
So tell me what „Anti-Zionism“ means exactly in your opinion.
Anti-Zionism Opposition to Jewish ethnonationalism
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.
- wikipedia
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism
In the West, maybe. For Hamas specifically…am I seriously the only one who read their charter? They cite the most notorious antisemitic hoax of all time with a straight face and their stated goal is to wipe out Israel and kill Jews.
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Very few people are arguing for Hamas. Mostly for the civilians of Palestine. And even Hamas claims it’s changed somewhat since the original charter.
They launched an entire military operation with the express purpose of murdering civilians at a music festival.
And you’re saying that’s the changed version?
I’ll believe that when I see it.
apparently you won’t tho cause…
…they have killed more civilians this past week than in either of the Intifadas.
Bro what is you talking about we can see through the astro babe.
You suggested people are supporting Hamas not the Palestinian civilians, you literally said
I’ll believe it when I see it.
It’s literally all over this thread and many others. People support Palestinians. You’re seeing it and not believing it.
Now this is your response? Fuck off Israel’s government are a bunch of pussies fuck yo shit
They replied to a different comment, lol
I’m talking about
And even Hamas claims it’s changed somewhat since the original charter.
I know people support Palestine.
“Yeah but this terrorist organization…” Really dog?
With majority support in Gaza.
Have you ever lived under a terrorist regime? When did Palestinians last vote and what is/where the demographics of the population vs eligible voters? What kind of democracy do they have, one like North Korea or maybe they have a government like the US? What’s the name of the president of Palestine? How many generals do they have? Do children deserve to be murdered because of how their parents voted?
Funnily enough, this has happened in the West in the last century. It was called “Vichy France” and those who rolled, les collaborateurs. There’s a reason “quisling” is a word.
My history is a bit fuzzy because I don’t remember allied forces turning all of France into rubble in response
When you opt for war, you’re the one putting your and your children’s lives on the chopping block. You better be damn sure it’s a risk you’re willing to run.
Same goes for Israel then, no? Why are they crying about a terrorist attack then, thems the breaks of war, right? I mean you can’t occupy a country and expect no retaliation so why is anyone even talking about this? Just a couple of nations going at it.
Same goes for Israel then, no?
In the broad, sure. But as everybody else seems to concern themselves with talking about Israel’s crimes, while painting the Palestinians as some helpless, repressed dove in a cage, I will leave them to the former and disprove the latter.
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionIf one disagrees or opposes one, they don’t oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that’s just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn’t call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you’ve seen isn’t “Antisemitism”. It’s opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What’s the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.
There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the “state of the oppressed” Israel responds with the military. “A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!”
If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the “West Bank” nor the “Gaza Strip” could exist without Israelites acting up against them.
Rant over.
I agree with your conclusions but it’s an oversimplification to say
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionThose things are very tied together, partially because no, Judaism is not just a religion. It’s a culture and ethnicity as well. And given the history of how/why Israel exists, it’s in the unique position of not just being any ole state.
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Israel played a pretty heavy role in the creation of Hamas. It’s not that simple. Here
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I see what you’re trying to do but that’s very much a false equivalence. It’s more akin to the US’ role in the creation of the Taliban (among many, many other orgs)
How is it a false equivalence? The Constitution literally said that Black people were 60% of a person. The South chose officials who enforced and fought tooth and nail to subjugate Blacks (Bleeding Kansas, anyone?).
The South had to go. (Or do you consider them a poor, marginalized population for what the Union did to them?)
EDIT: Also note that the CSA literally seceded from the Union over the issue.
Enlighten me, what similar situations are happening with Israel and Palestine that makes this comparison relevant? The politics and history around slavery in the US are completely different than this
I don’t see what any of this has to do with what I wrote
So you say that you oppose Israel’s existence itself - the existence as a state, but do not hate Jews in particular, right?
Do you support the existence of an apartheid state? Yes or no answer only.
Completely off-topic, but WABBAJACK!
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Try your derailing somewhere else.
Where did the poster say that?
We all know that I didn’t. But they need that for some sort of strawman argument, methinks.
Username checks out.
I know you would love it @rah 😘
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This comment thread is an absolute fucking joke. You’re all dumb as absolute fuck.
Both sides of this conflict are pieces of shit. There is no side “to blame.” This conflict has been going on for about 100 years and both sides have committed human rights violation and heinous acts of violence.
If you actually want to blame someone, blame the fucking British and the Americans for manipulating both the zionists and the Palestinians to help win the world wars, and for promising them both the same land.
You’re all wasting your time trying to to blame Israel or Palestine. Don’t be so fucking lazy people. Read a god damn history book rather than basing your opinions on social media. Jesus…
Guilty Killing civilians: Hamas, Israeli government.
Guilty of Genocide: Israeli government
People who don’t deserve to get killed: Palestine civilians, Israeli civilians.
People who have claims to the land: both Palestine civilians and Israeli civilians (sorry the situation is fucked).
Fascist and helping each other gain power: Hamas, Netanyahu
Why are the attacks from Israel considered genocidal, but not those from Palestine?
because Hamas hasn’t cut off water to some 2 million people? like, positions of power mean you will end up actually qualifying for things like “committing genocide” much sooner
So Hamas who want to commit genocide but fail at it are not genocidal. But Israel which could easily commit genocide but doesn’t do it is genocidal?
Look up the definition. Israel is currently commiting genocide. Not denying that hamas didn’t want to, but they aren’t in a position to do so and never will be.
Definition of genocide:
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
The aim of Israel isn’t to destroy Palestine or kill all Palestinians. They definitely want to destroy Hamas, maybe they want to take over Gaza. While their tactics are inhumane and kill many Palestinians, I don’t see how you could argue their real goal is to kill Palestinian as an ethnicity. Abou 20 % of the citizens in Israel are Palestinian. And they also do not attack the Westbank.
who said Israel doesn’t commit genocide? just by numbers, if Hamas had committed genocide Israel would have done so 10 times sooner
Genocide isn’t about numbers though. A genocide means your goal is to kill everyone from a certain ethnicity. With currently 20 % of citizens in Israel being Palestinian and no attacks on the Westbank I can’t see how you would argue the goal and reason for the war is that Israel wants to kill everyone with Palestinian ethnicity?
West bank settlers are currently just shooting Palestinians while being protected by the government, and no, you actually need to be able to kill the people to call it genocide,
Not effective enough, I’m guessing
Guilty of Genocide: Israeli government
I don’t think it’s because of lack of will or lack of trying from the Arab side
So to be clear, what are you saying? Are you saying the genocide is justified?
I would like to see the logic you used to come to that conclusion from my comment
Gladly, thanks for asking. So I started out with my general assumption that genocide is always bad. I figured most people agree with that.
Then I looked at your reply and I was like this person is listing some reasons why the Israeli government is genocideing civilians and I noticed that you lumped Palestinian civilians and Hamas into one group “Arabs”. And I thought that was interesting because Arabs is a pretty large group that includes people who are unrelated to the current conflict. I also noticed that you left out one of the major reasons for the genocide which is racism. I’m sure you just forgot to list that as I think it is one of the larger reasons for doing the genocide.
Then I was trying to figure out what your comment was adding to the thread. Were you just unsure if we were aware that Hamas had killed Israeli civilians? No, my original post specified that they did.
So I was very confused as to why you made your post in the first place.
Then I remembered that some people online like the genocideing of Palestine civilians. Some people want it to keep going and for that to happen they need to make the genocide sound justified. They may do this by posting something very similar to what you posted.
Now, I don’t know why you made your post, so I asked. I also wanted clarification if you thought the genocide was justified because it seems like something a pro-genocide person might post.
Now that I have written out my process, can I please get you to confirm that you think the genocide of the Palestinian civilians is bad.
It was about nutty as I expected.
I was talking about Arab attempts to drive Jews “to the sea” and remove them from the area completely. You might’ve seen some of these calls and heard of some of these attempts. If not, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict
I’m surprised someone would take that as a pro genocide stance, but it did take some advanced logic for sure.
Now, I don’t know why you made your post, so I asked. I also wanted clarification if you thought the genocide was justified because it seems like something a pro-genocide person might post.
Now that I have written out my process, can I please get you to confirm that you think the genocide of the Palestinian civilians is bad.
I’m somewhat surprised my previous reply where I made fun of you for jumping to that very assumption didn’t already clarify how you were wrong. Then again, using sarcasm with someone who clearly misunderstands stuff might have been a bad move. lol
Alright, so I was wrong and a big dumb dumb.
Clearly it should be extremely easy for you to say that the genocide of Palestinian civilians is bad as you were not trying to justify it. But you haven’t said it yet. It’s been like 2 replies. I get it, it can be hard to keep track of everything in that big brain of yours.
So here it is. I have rolled out the red carpet. I’ve taken the big L. All that is left is for you reply with “the genocide of Palestinian civilians is bad”. Heck you can even copy it from this reply and post it.
Israel has been boxing in the Palestinians for those 100 years, slowly choking them out and forcibly removing them from their homes. Now, multiple generations later, millions of Palestinians are backed into a small corner of their ancestral land as they are still forcibly removed from their homes and murdered in the streets. This is a genocide… like it has been for the last 100 years. Israelis are the invading force. Why wouldn’t the Palestinians fight back? Innocent people died, but that doesn’t give the Zionists the all clear to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.
That’s a neat trick considering Israel is only 75 years old.
They used the 100 years figure from OP
Sit on my face.
blame the fucking British and the Americans
None of the ones who made those decisions are alive anymore. Are you going to dig up their coffins and shout at the corpses?
You make some good points though. However, we can absolutely blame actors at play today for things that are happening today. Hamas committed atrocities, now Israel is going in heavy handed and exacerbating the situation. Not sure why people find it difficult to state that. Hatred, I assume.
Israel kept them in a concentration camp for years… was that not an atrocity?
no no, you see, Only things done TO Israel are atrocities and bad.
Palestinians just need to accept, with quiet dignity, the human rights violations, war crimes, and genocides and never raise a single finger in anger over the human rights violations and warcrimes they are subjected to.
/s
could you stop with this antisemitic bullshit? the people in Gaza aren’t humans, so why tarnish the good name of Israel (that represents all the Jews in the world btw) /s
yes apparently not wanting to genocide Gaza is antisemitic due to shitty American foreign policy propaganda
This is where I’m at. I’ll admit I don’t know much of anything about the history of the situation, but what I see right now, is religious fanatics fighting religious fanatics. Fuck all of 'em
is religious fanatics fighting religious fanatics. Fuck all of 'em
I am with you.
Though it would be nice if refugees from palestia would get asylum in Europe (which they don’t), then the non-fanatics could get out of there, while the crazies do their thing.
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Thanks, I was not aware of this. This changes a lot.
Could you point me in the right direction? (i.e. are there good/neutral articles elaborating on this specific case?)
Why in Europe and not in Egypt, which is a border country to the Gaza stripe?
I usually try not to comment on these topics, but where on the israeli side do you see religious fanatics? You can say many things about their side, but religion is not their motive.
really? the coalition of “Israel is a Jewish ethnostate” and literal Jewish fascist party (Jewish power, formerly anti-arab militia terror group) doesn’t make you think that they may be some form of religious fanatics?
Ethnicity is not a religion. Being jewish has either a religious or an ethnic cultural meaning. Saying Israel is jewish as in religious is saying you solved a 75 year old internal argument. Heck this argument is the reason Israel has no constitution yet. Its a mostly secular country though. Most people are not acting upon any religious rules beyond celebrating the holidays (no different than celebrating christmas for “christians”).
Oh, and guess what? The construction of israel is completely irrelevent to whether or not right now they are fighting due to a religion or not. They were receiving terrorist attacks and wars declared against them since conception.
Whether or not you agree with their original idea or the means they used along the way does not change the fact they are fighting for non religious reasons. They were attacked and they are responding with questionable means. Religious plays no part here.
And “jewish power” received less than 5% of the votes. In the American voting system they would have been as relevant as the american neo-nazi party (which means irrelevant). They are only in the government because fanatics are easily united, and because Netanyahu is a literal criminal that would form a government with simply anyone so that he can avoid jail time.
There very much is a collection of Jewish ethnicities, to ignore this is flat out wrong, btw here is the definition of Ethnicity:
An ethnicity or ethnic group is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment.
But besides that, your entire argument flat out ignores the positions of the Ruling Israeli party over the last 20+ years. Fact is that the National Liberals and Jewish Power parties ARE in power, they DO have these beliefs, they have espoused them openly and their policy clearly shows that they mean to follow through with these ideas.
As for the last point, Israel is not America, and the Israeli system does place relevance on all the coalition partners in government, and oh ya, the equivalent of the Nazi party IS IN POWER in Israel.
I dont see the relevence of your first paragraph. Yes there is more than just 1 type of jew. So what?
Jewish power is a far right party with religious elements. It persuaded even secular young voters with speeches about a powerful country and far right ideas. Some people are easily persuaded by ideas of power. What else is new? But calling them nazi equivalents is a huge stretch. With all the bad things i can say about them, they are not nazis. Also, whether or not they are nazis is beyond the point here. They are definitely religious, they are definitely fanatics, and they are definitely not THE government.
And you completely missed the point - the political system in israel is one that gives some power even to smaller parties, such as Jewish Power and The United Arab List. They are not “in power”, they simply have some power.
For reference, they have about as much power as the arabic-islamic party The United Arab List had in the previous government, yet i never saw people calling israel an islamic arabic country.
I feel like we’re blaming the side that is blaming a side, and there is a lot of blame going around.
Or at least that’s what I did and am trying to avoid doing again.
Lol blame the british
The conflict is 3000 years old. There is no blaming anyone.
It’s a conflict older than one of the religions involved. Its crazy how people think they cam blame one side only
based.
Both sides deserve blame, though. I (weakly) support Israel because I feel that Gaza has been more evil recently.
Yeah where the fuck is the antisemitism? Fuckin dogshit takes that think one side is clean where the other isnt? Yeah, plenty of that. But antisemitism itself? I havent seen it
I am seeing some of it tbh. Antisemite shitbirds who think just because a lot of folks are (rightfully) mad at Israel, that they can sneak in their heinous philosophy. Go muddy some other waters with that bullshit, is what I say.
Agreed, Isreal is doing problematic shit, that says nothing about Jewish people in general. Antisemites can eat shit
Antisemitism ≠ antizionism, lemmy.ml (speaking from experience) has waaaaay harsher and stricter moderation that something like ee or world, they straight up hard-remove words from comments, an antisemite would be banned on sight.
Unless they painted their antisemitism in a thin veneer of
fetishizingsupporting PalestiniansMost Palestinians are semites as well.
Antisemitism is specifically discrimination against jews, not against all semitic peoples…
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Me looking at all the genocide denying ethnostate apologists on lemmy 😥
Blocking hexbear helps.
And Lemmygrad AND Lemmy.ml
Eh? Those guys are all in on Palestine.
Why is everyone in the comments section oversimplifying this complex issue? Great reminder that that’s what politics is now, blaming one side and naming the other side pure.
I…I don’t think that’s a “now” thing, unfortunately.
You make a good point actually.
I am pro-skub.
HOW DARE YOU! I am anti-skub.
It’s ramped up pretty considerably lately.
There’s no such thing as nuance any more. If you accept that nuance exists then you might have to accept that
[]might be wrong, and it might be wrong a lot.
Where? Lemmy.ml usually cracks down on racists pretty hard report them when you see them
I stick to this instance, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this is another person calling anyone who doesn’t blindly support Israeli genocide efforts antisemitic.
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Its antisemitic to equate all Jews with Israel so…
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That is indeed really specific, thank you.
So you would support a two state solution based on the 1947/48 suggested borders?
Not my experience. If you’re talking about Israel a lot of people are getting really fast really mad. If you try to talk rational about other states people stay mostly calm. I would call this behaviour a double-standard because of antisemitism. There’s no rational reason why people focus so much about this little state.
Sorry I’m having a moment. In your experience Lemmy.ml does not crack down on racists in a hard manner? Because a lot of the anger towards Israel comes from an antisemitic place since other states don’t get criticized so harshly?
It sounds believable since it would be pretty hard to differentiate why exactly someone is reacting in a harsh manner and ban them accordingly. Just my brain is refusing to parse words atm
I disagree with authoritarians and leninists vehemently. However. It’s the way many of them are speaking about Israel right now is not at all that different from how they speak about the United States in general. The major differentiating factor is that Israel is performing a new fuck up on the world stage live for all to view. Very much current events and on everyone’s lips right now. America has a huge back catalog of it. But Israel is not getting treated anymore harsher or hypocritically by them than places like the United States Etc.
Hahahaha. Lol.
They’re rabidly pro Palestine/Hamas over there.
Alright, but antisemitic?
They call it anti-zonist.
Mostly, they just downplay every horrible thing Hamas does, and make a huge deal out of every bad thing Israel does.
Yeah, it was just a little genocide guys, what’s the big deal
Israel can have a little genocide, as a treat
It’s actually pretty huge deal all thing considered.
It is, but then Hamas actually launched an operation whose entire goal was to slaughter civilians. Kinda hard to feel any sympathy for them after that.
Ah yes, targeting civilians, Israel would never do that,
They at least have the decency to pretend it was an accident.
What do you think the bombing campaign has been? Only 10x more effective.
Dumb takes from a .ml account, what a surprise.
Imagine support genocide
I’m supporting nobody.
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case, as the comments of lemmy.ml users here show.
Could really use some citations of .ml being anti semitic
Lemmy.world go 30 minutes without making things up about other instances challenge.
Difficulty: impossible.
Whiniest instance by far. I get the hate for hexbear and grad, but ml is normal
OP isn’t from .world but ok
But they posted to it
ML banned my .ml account for saying that soldiers in the US revolution didn’t murder families and children. They are full mask off
Which is ironic because Lenin said that Washington was a Chad for overthrowing the monarchy.
If there’s one thing Lenin would have understood, it’s that you can’t control everything your revolution does.
I mean objectively some probably did. One of the major provisions of the treaty of Paris was the protection of folks who were loyalists from retaliations, and the nascent US’ inability to actually keep their end of that term is basically the starting point of Canada post revolution.
What qualifies that is that several revolutionary leaders majorly disincentivized that behavior, Washington in particular famously forced his soldiers to compensate nearby townsfolk for anything they needed to take, even during the stay at Valley Forge where they were basically starving to such an extreme that Washington brought Vaccine science to the US military because otherwise the sheer starvation they were going through was liable to leave them all especially exposed to disease.
I think it’s just the biggest and most accessible, so you’re obviously going to see the most of this kind of whiney shit posting.
TFW the flagship instance isn’t the largest because the creators drove people off with weird political views.
If by flagship instance you mean .ml, they drove people off because of the Reddit migration. They couldn’t afford to upgrade their infrastructure, so they told people to register in other instances.
Which ones the flagship instance?
i think lemmy.world is the biggest now
I assume that it’s lemmy.ml
Why do you keep making up lies?
You guys are very far from normal, about half your “memes” are just communist whingeing thinly veiled as humour.
Lol ml is filled with far left morons it is not even funny.
Rightwingers aren’t people. Also, Rengoku would never support your political position.
Ouch far left detected. Subhuman.
Don’t worry, your possessions will be fairly redistributed after the revolution :)
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genociding brown people doesn’t count.
If they live here in the US, then chances are they really do believe this, at least by action if not word. We’re still withholding land from the tribes that is properly theirs (even by our colonialist treaties’ standards), and just look what we’re doing at the southern border.
I wouldn’t call it antisemitic. Just pretty biased.
