You must log in or # to comment.
to be fair hamas is kinda very bad… the palestinians obviously not tho and isreal is still doing a Genocide
Yeah they send children out to throw rocks at tanks. Worst monsters on the planet. But continue to swallow their propaganda because it’s designed to make you so emotional that you don’t ask “what kind of person sends their kids out to throw rocks at tanks?”
Yeah Mama’s is still very bad
Two things can be bad but the other much worse.
Dont tell that to the people here, theyre not the type to recognize the hispanic genocide they have triggered in the united states.
What do you mean by this
We are in the beginning stages of hispanic genocide in the United States, and it is clearly perpetrated by one side.
First, it isn’t really a hispanic genocide, it is a Native American genocide. They aren’t hauling off white people allegedly from Spain like Hilaria Baldwin.
They are also starting to include black people and white people who are opposed. Of course, this is still primarily a genocide against Natives.
And it isn’t the beginning, it is hundreds of years in the making. The reason they dislike Spanish speaking Latin countries, is because those are the places where the Natives won. Look at their leaders and their races - now look at Canada and the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_las_Casas
Native Americans SHOULD have rights to cross borders to preserve ancient trade routes. Eg horses arrived in the west of North America well before white men did, because of these trade routes. These people are all loosely related and have been travelling between peoples and intermarrying for thousands of years, literally.
Second, are you seeing people in favor of ICE here? I’ve never seen a hateful comment towards Latinos, Natives, or hispanics on Lemmy but I’m open to the idea that there are comments like that here. The way your first comment reads, it can be interpreted to mean you are actually advocating FOR the genocide btw, or making it seem like there is a both sides - the Natives are completely innocent.
I’m on the fence. It’s a high fence, with a great view of both sides, but one side requires me to put my theater glasses on first and promises that the final act will be to die for. The other side seem to be missing actors, so are less interesting.
I really don’t know where to stand either, since the seating situation in the gallery requires you to only look down and makes it hard to see anything at eye level
Hard to tell if this is a metaphor or just a status update of an acrobat
Bit of both. I tried to tell the story of the fence-sitters as rich opulent people spectating the war as if it were a theater, watching the actions of the IDF through the lens of a performative act of infotainment, whilst ignoring the real “show” happening in Palestine because there simply isn’t enough coverage of it.
Anyway I butchered it, much like the kids in Palestine
Don’t “both sides” genocide. The victims are not less bad, because they are not bad in the first place.
It’s a deliberate strategy. They can’t say they support the genocide anymore but they can still push the idea that it was sorta deserved
Let me just start by saying that the overwhelming majority of victims from Israel’s genocidal warfare are innocent civilians, many of which are children.
However, the other side of belligerents in this conflict is Hamas, who are unequivocally terrorists. Yes, Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people has pushed a lot of people towards Hamas, and yes, Israel has made sure that Hamas has received ample funding and support as a way to weaken the Palestinian Authority, but that doesn’t make Hamas less bad.
Hamas hasn’t just terrorized, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Israeli civilians, they have waged a campaign of oppression and terror against the Palestinian people in order to remain in power. They are a symptom of the national, regional, and geopolitical situation that exists in that region, but they are horrible nonetheless.
Genociders deserve to be terrorised.
Hamas hasn’t just terrorized, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Israeli civilians
Doing atrocity propaganda in favour of Israel is bad. There has been no mass rape of “Israeli”, that’s Hasbara propaganda. Palestine has a right to defend itself from the worst atrocity of the 21st century.
I agree, obviously. I think when people try to “both sides” this, as it seems, they’re not talking about victims of genocide. Hamas, as the Palestinian leadership in Gaza, have been receiving literal briefcases of money from Israel for years; you can’t call them [the governmental and especially military organization] victims of Israel.
Not being victims doesn’t make them automatically bad. You might argue that armed resistance is necessary to oppose occupation and ethnic cleansing, and that’s a legitimate point. I’d say that Hamas, in this case, being the lesser evil, is still an evil, but it doesn’t only exist to be evil: it exists to fight the bigger evil. Perhaps there’s a not-evil way to fight the occupying power, I don’t know. But what Hamas (& other resistance organizations) have been doing is definitely not working for them. Some might say that it’s backfired massively1.
It depends on how you choose to view this conflict. It can be a conflict of Israel against Palestine (or Israel against Gaza), and in this dichotomic view, the moral option is obviously supporting the Palestinians, Hamas included. But this view doesn’t necessarily represent reality. It can also be a conflict between people who want peace2 between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and those who don’t, on whichever “side” they happen to be. In this case, it’s imperative to support (actual, not fake) humanitarian foundations in Gaza, and organizations in Israel trying to fight this from within, but oppose escalation in armed conflict. By this view, the conflict is of Israel as a country (a government and military), not a nation, and Hamas as a military, not a representative of the Palestinians, against the Palestinian population3.
My point is that this thread is just arguing over terminology. There is a genocide, we oppose the people facilitating the genocide, and we support the victims. It doesn’t get much more complicated.
Footnotes (yes I used footnotes in a lemmy comment):
1: The one doing the genocide is obviously Israel. Blaming Hamas for bringing this on their own people is disingenuous, but on the other hand, you can’t say that they didn’t know this was going to happen, especially with this Israeli government.
2: Peace is complicated, but for a start we can consider people who oppose genocide, ethnic cleansing, military occupation, and illegal settlements. The optimal solution is the one-state solution, which not everyone accepts, but you work with what you have.
3: There is some effect on the Israeli population, though it’s negligible compared to genocide. Both Israel and Hamas have to maintain some level of support within their respective population, but Israel being way more powerful and the support threshold for Hamas being lower result in a relatively smaller impact on the Israeli population.Is there only one side?
What kind of future does that boy have under his current leadership. What kind of opportunities does Palestine provide these children and what is their stated goals as a government around this conflict again?
When Palestine is freed from genocide, occupation and apartheid, it will be free to democratically decide what to do with itself. You probably understand Zelensky not carrying out elections during a comparatively “mild” invasion (yes, sad, but not an overt genocide), what are Palestinians supposed to do? Maybe the fault of who’s the only faction capable of resistance is of the oppressors murdering hundreds of thousands?
The ethnic cleansing of Ukraine is absolutely a genocide, what are you talking about? They’re kidnapping the children and sending them to be raised by Russian families, they’re destroying the cultural and religious monuments and changing the national language. How is that not genocide?
Comparing the ratio of civilian/children to soldier casualties of the Ukraine war with essentially any other war in which an industrialized nation has engaged in for the past half a century it gets obvious that Russia’s objective is not the elimination of Ukrainians as an ethnicity unless we apply that standard for US involvement in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan… (which I consider atrocious but not genocidal). It is a war of invasion, but not a genocide.
Ukrainian children being kidnapped are isolated instances, not a mass occurrence, no serious journalistic job proves otherwise other than claims from the Ukrainian administration, which has obvious reasons for doing atrocity propaganda.
These accusations of children/women being hurt are levied in every western involvement as we saw with Nayirah’s Testimony which the west took at face value and turned out to be a psyop to sway public opinion doing atrocity propaganda against Iraq.
I’m in favour of condemning all instances of Ukrainian children being relocated to Russia and I’d arguably consider most of those a war crime, but there’s a step between that and taking Ukrainian administration claims of tens of thousands (when the independently confirmed numbers hover the hundreds or few thousands if I’m not mistaken) and making accusations of genocide.
Using the word “genocide” lightly to describe every western geopolitical enemy is dangerous towards victims of blatant genocide such as Palestinians, at risk of losing the weight of the war.
The Russian Ministry of Defense admits 307,000 children were illegally forced from their homes in Ukraine and relocated to Russia. That is not ‘isolated incidents’, and it’s why the ICC has an arrest warrant issued for Vladimir Putin.
Those children are being reeducated and raised as Russians. That is not a normal wartime practice, it’s a Hallmark of genocide.
What ratio of soldier to civilian casualties is necessary for a genocide? I wasn’t aware of this metric.
It’s not just about the children, the areas being conquered are having their culture and history stripped away and destroyed, the language is being changed to Russian; the goal is the destruction of the Ukrainian ethnic identity, this is not the same as other conflicts you named.
The Russian Ministry of Defense admits 307,000 children were illegally forced from their homes in Ukraine and relocated to Russia
Those numbers are ridiculous and blatant Russian propaganda. Taking the Russian Ministry of Defense claims at face value is absurd, and if I’m not mistaken this isn’t even an official communiqué but just something a higher up of the organization said. Unless you truly believe that Russia had killed 1mn Ukrainian soldiers by 2023, you shouldn’t believe the number of kidnapped children claim.
What ratio of soldier to civilian casualties is necessary for a genocide?
There isn’t a final answer but obviously extreme numbers on one either of the ratio are relevant (i.e. 600k Palestinian civilians murdered by “Israel” since Oct 2023 with about half of them being children out of a population of a few million people in Gaza point towards genocide, the case for Ukraine doesn’t point to that direction with estimates not usually exceeding the 20k civilians dead since Feb 2022, with military deaths probably above a few hundreds of thousands).
It’s not just about the children, the areas being conquered are having their culture and history stripped away and destroyed, the language is being changed to Russian
Since 2014 the Ukrainian government was shelling Donbas during the Ukrainian civil war, and in some regions with a majority of self-defined Russians Russian was forbidden. Russia argues that this was a genocide of Russians through war and erasure of language and Russian culture with Russian icons being demolished too. Genocide of Russians is the justification of Russia to invade Ukraine. I don’t take these accusations of genocide that seriously either because of the same reasons I don’t believe Russia is genociding Ukrainians, I believe it’s a political tool to turn your population against a geopolitical enemy. That’s why I want to base this discussion on independent journalistic work instead of accusations from one government to the other
I like to watch the people watch the rocket launching, if they don’t move fast enough they get hit by counter battery. Truly awful 🤣
You are a disgusting example of a human being. You should be instabanned for spewing shit like that.
I mean your side uses these corny propaganda pictures like the average observer hasn’t been watching for 40+ years: show the pictures of rockets launching from crowded markets and backfiring on friendly civilians 🤣🤣🤣
Heartless zionazi, “Israel” has already lost and will disintegrate over the following decades. Palestine will be free
Good. I just hope you are correct. Their government has been using them as pawns. In a very similar fashion to how you use them for upvotes 🤣 if you leave the Palestinian people in the hands of Hamas they will never be free. I hold both leaderships accountable for the bloodshed. They all need to be replaced. Most of them have been clinging to power due to this conflict. It’s hard to ignore the video evidence of non stop offensive rocket strikes for the last 40 years. Lots of great hits to revisit. It’s not like either side has been peaceful. They are both bad, and the Palestinian people suffer the most because of it. Ignoring half of their suffering is insufferable
Removed by mod
Yeah, but we do get riled by ableist slurs.
Your instance is lead by genocide supporter. One of the ex-mod confirmed recieving propaganda from israeli mail account.
Good liberals are always more shocked by mean words than litteral attrocities
I’m locking this post. You guys can’t keep it civil and just keep reporting each others comments back and forth. I’m going to start doing temp bans for abusing the reporting system if you can’t figure out how to fight your battles without asking for someone else to come in an censor your opposition.
I find these bullshit false dichotomies to be beyond annoying. Stop trying to kill nuance, it’s not either or. Two things can be bad at the same time with different extents. Acknowledging this fact allows you to take in more context and actually form a principled point of view rather than a reactionary one. Lemmy is filled to the brim with pissing matches that boil down to “WhAt aBoUt ThIs GuY?!?!” because everything is oversimplified and reactionary.
Yup… and whoever lets their kids throw rocks at soldiers are fucked up people.
A “fair fight” means more civilians die. Non-violent resistance would gain the Palestinians a lot more than sending their children out to throw rocks at tanks.
I’ve lost my mother, my brother, my father is disabled and I’m stuck getting water and trying to make sure we have food; all because men in tanks like this one have destroyed our way of life. Fuck em, I cast throw rock.
Seriously, no. No the parents are not fucked up, their lives have likely been scarred in one way or another by these people. The ones who are fucked up are the ones who should never have been there in the first place.
What I said doesn’t just apply to this conflict, it applies to everything political these days, and this mentality is so prevalent that it’s actually starting degenerate our societies.
To be honest, if the rock thrower has more than 20 points of power level, that tank is cooked
Hey I don’t like genocide but also don’t believe anything should be done to stop it. /s
Removed by mod
how about a nice rapey one?
There was no mass rape in October 7th, you’re replicating Hasbara atrocity propaganda “Nayirah’s Testimony” style. You’re a supporter of genocide.
you’re a supporter of the genocidal terrorist war crime of murdering jews
a handful of rapes doesn’t even get you excited any more
Please just got back to Reddit.
do they have brainwashed propaganda broken-folks over there too? fun!
I really wonder why your genocide apologist cunt still isn’t banned really tell you everything about lemmy.world admins
are you apologizing for 100 years of islamofascist genocidal terrorism?
i bet you cheat at cards as well, you monster!
ps. you really must work on your use of the word cunt. if you use it without making sense you look a bit silly and it loses its zestiness. read an irving welsh novel, alright darling?
These things excuse genocide? Is that what you’re saying?
Of course not.
The theme of this post is ‘both sides are bad’. You agree?
Got any pictures of 77 years of apartheid, and 2 years of genocide?
How about all the times the Israel Occupation Force (IOF) raped Palestinians?
Or how about indiscriminate rocket attacks by Israel on Gaza, systematically annihilating hospitals, universities, and other institutions.
You are a reactionary that conveniently chooses to ignore history. You are a fascist enabler, and should be prosecuted.
i do
they come with 100 years of genocidal terrorism pictures as a collectors pack
Genocide*
So you’re on the grandma nazi side?
*Grammar
Oma says she’s sick of the untermensch.
Conservatives and Israelis are tankies now
I mean pretty sure they’re the one owning the tanks
deleted by creator
That child is no angel.
…yet
Savage
Damn you for making me laugh at this.
Sending your kids out to throw rocks at an army is bad parenting.
Weak doesn’t always mean morally good. Using children in military is against Geneva convention.
What does the Geneva convention say about bombing children
It is also against geneva convention. “1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.”
I think it was ironic
resistance to occupation is a basic human right,
Zionist fascist detected: opinion ignored. It is an indictment against .world that people like you aren’t instantly permabanned
Where I said I am fascist?
Where you spend your time on the internet making apologia for the fascist genocidal colonialist ethnostate.
I am of the opinion genocide is bad. And I acknowledge In defense of you, the parent comment looks like detracting from the conversation of the evils Israel is committing.
So I agree that you should call out people trying to detract from the conversation. Although I should warn you that you should be precise in this instead of just calling people facists as: 1. You may come to realize people don’t default to introspection when you shout at them… only dig their heels deeper. 2 A lot of people are unfortunately too selfish to consider the wellbeing of others. This can come out as indifference or fascist apologia.
Actually a lot of people DO change their minds when they are yelled at. Sometimes it’s the only approach that works, because often they’ve already been gently explained to.
I don’t care about the feelings of fashies, I call them out as fascists in hopes that the admins permaban them. I don’t attempt to change their small minds, I attempt to create a safer space in this social network.
Then you’re a fool who doesn’t know what it takes to win other people over. Simply label people and move on. Then later ask “why is everywhere turning conservative/fascist?”. That’s your mode of operation.
Because you have to actually put effort into listening and discern other people’s intentions.
Your attempt to create a safer space is pointless as you seem to give up at the slightest sign of resistance. You don’t even slow down before you start accusing people of being Nazis. Easy shortcut to avoid spending mental energy. But not conducive to winning over people.
I’m sorry it’s not clear enough to you that someone advocating for mass forcible relocation of Palestinian children is a fascism apologist. I’m not here to “debate Nazis and own them epically”, I’m here to call out Nazism and mods should be here to enforce anti-nazi bans.
It’s not my fault that this person is a Nazi, it’s your fault that these people are allowed at all in the mainstream. “You made me support the genocide of Palestinians by calling me a bad word!!!”
There are people who don’t deserve to be won over. You wouldn’t waste your time arguing with a pedophile about the merits of raping kids would you?
“Fascist genocidal colonialist enthostate” you described Palestine. You probably angry rn so to little calm down you I say I am against Ben Gvir. But this will be controversial - Someone should evacuate infants and toddlers from Gaza to avoid their dies. No one will agree. Hamas want to human shields and new recruits. IDF don’t care about babies.
You don’t understand the meaning of the words “fascist”, “genocidal”, “colonial” or “ethnostate”, so you should refrain from ridiculing yourself.
Evacuating Palestinian children from their land would amount to forcible relocation, which is part of the genocidal policy “Israel” follows, again proving you have literally 0 idea what you’re talking about
Relocation would be better than starving or bombing. The problem is also where relocate. Israel and arabic states are unsafe. Even Lebanon is unsafe cause of Hesbollah. So imo the best place to relocate them is Europe.
criminal comes with guns to your home, murders half your family and occupies 3/4 of it: “you should just relocate, bro, it will be much safer”
Wow are you advocating for mass kidnapping you fucking weirdo?
That’s what Russia’s doing in Ukraine
Removed by mod
lol, what did I just read.
The part where you justify genocide because they “use child soldiers”
Yeah, no.
False, and factually so.
Biden’s permanent response to anything Bibi ever wanted was: “You got it, boss. How high do you want me to jump?”
Israel is an issue where both sides are equally bad. Part of me hopes one day someone manages to slip a nuke into Gaza, because that’s the only way Israel and the US will ever consider peace.
I think the two sides here are Israel and Palestine, not the two major US parties.
Some people define the two sides as Hamas and Israel which is awkward cause I can’t criticize Hamas for wanting to fight the Israelis but I can criticize them for being a Right Wing organization set up and funded by the Israelis to weaken the PLO and Palestinian unity.
The Israeli funding is a fairly recent development. They were doing fine on russian and Iranian funding for all the decades they were around and shouting “death to Israel”.
Jee really they were screaming that ? I wonder why /s
Because they’re religious fundamentalists whose entire existence is defined by the fact that they want to destroy Israel. It’s in their charter.
Political reasons aside - they’re psychopathic fundamentalists.
That’s not true. Israeli money has been flowing into the US before the establishment of Israel.
The US? What are you talking about?
We are talking about Hamas, not the US.
“Israeli funding is fairly recent” you’re wrong.
Yep, in hindsight I see I misinterpreted it. Thanks for the correction.
That’s not the same bothside. Obviously both sides of the US are on the same side.
You’re right. I misinterpreted it. My mistake.
You are one messed up person for thinking so easily about someones life.
I’d almost hope you encounter yourself in a time of need to understand just how wrong you are
Thanks for trump, you succeeded.
Palestinians can learn a lot from the ANC’s struggle for freedom in South Africa. They were also violently oppressed, they also had their land and property taken. They also became puppets of foreign governments with the goal of destabilizing the region
What changed, was that they realized they could never win an armed conflict and targeting civilians did nothing but intensify the oppression and undermine international sympathy for their cause.
They switched to a campaign of unarmed resistance, worked internationally to break the regime’s support base and partnered with whites who also wanted the oppression to stop.
Israel will never stop this conflict, so long as they can use fear against their own citizens to remain in power. Palestinians need normal Israelis on their side.
So long as the pictures show a child vs a tank, their movement is working. But when it shows armed palestinian men attacking Israeli civilians, they are losing.
Palestinians, like the ANC, need to keep violence out of their movement, especially the use of religion to justify that violence.
nice try, but mandela resisted being released early, because he felt violence is neccesary in his case to end apartheid.
Why do you think he changed his mind?
This comment show lack of understanding of how Israeli response to peaceful protests.
It is wild to me when you expect anything from someone who is willing to shoot and kill children on live tv. By the way I am not talking about Gaza after October 7.
You can check out all the other peaceful protests where soldiers were shooting their knees, or respond with violence.
“You shouldnt scream when you get raped, instead call the police after and hopefully they will arrest him if they found enough evidence” OP probably…
If OnLy ThEy UsEd PeAcEfUl PrOteSt…
That is the event that radicalised me
You misunderstand unarmed resistance. You want to shout when raped, as loud as you can.
The key thing is you can never ever take the offensive and attack israeli civilians.
It is brutally unfair, but you can never cede the moral high ground, not even for a moment.
when they attack soldiers Israeli cries about terrorists killing their young babies.
look at all those “civilians” with military titles that were killed (and bombed by Israel) in Oct7th.
Yeah you’re know what’s better than shouting. Attacking the rapist
This, right here. Lethal or disabling first strikes work as the best defense when the defender is smaller and weaker.
The key thing is you can never ever take the offensive and attack israeli civilian
There are no “Israeli” civilians, it’s a genocidal settler state on occupied territories that belong to Palestinians. If a military comes to your home, vacates you forcefully and murders your family, you naturally have a right to violence against whoever is occupying your house.
The key thing is you can never ever take the offensive and attack israeli civilians.
I mean, I do agree with the fact that civillians should never be attacked, but your “never use violence” part doesn’t hold up. The police and military are valid target to attack.
I mean:
- American Revolution
- French Revolution
- Xinhai Revolution
- War of Resistance against Japanese Imperialism in Asia
- Battle of Normandy, Operation Overlord, and war against nazi germany
- etc…
These are all “violence”, but that’s how they won.
Military targets are valid. Not arguing against that.
Regarding the other conflicts. They had much closer power parity, so they could compete with the opposition.
No you are absolutely wrong. The right to resist is recognized human rights.
Even South Africa recognized the Palestinians rights for arms resistance.
Israel goes around kidnapping people with military force and because media call it arrest it is okay. When Hamas do the same, you think it is wrong.
The Palestinians have giving away their weapons before and it didn’t get them anywhere.
your comments are objectively wrong.
No you are absolutely wrong. The right to resist is recognized human rights.
Ah, so it’s all fine that Hamas primarily targets civilians then. I guess those women and children on October 7 had it coming - it was their fault for being born Israeli!
Oh, wait, there was a bunch of international tourists among the victims? Well, fuck them too for coming to Israel!
The Palestinians have giving away their weapons before and it didn’t get them anywhere.
When did that happen?
OK, fair enough. I assumed you meant “Hamas” when you wrote that, for some reason, which was dumb.
So, yeah, the Palestinians, or PLO, did that, true. And then Hamas took over and fucked up the situation.
Whatever “side” you’re on, I think we can both agree that fundamentalist psychopaths - on both sides - are the guilty party.
Irony, the ultimate weapon of the argumentless
The South African government supporting armed resistance has very little to do with a moral position. It has more to do with them seeking support from Iran and Russia for their corruption.
I know it’s not fair. It is brutal and inhumane.
Israel is committing a genocide Gaza to a degree we have not seen since the genocide in Dafhur.
My point is one of practicality. What does a violent attack on civilians achieve for the palestinian cause?
Say a man is in the woods with his family and they come across a wolf. The man attacks the wolf unprovoked and the wolf fights back, but the man is too strong. His only hope is that the family would tell the man to stop, or that a park ranger would notice it and intervene.
Would the wolf attacking the mans family achieve anything in its favour? Or would that erode his support with the family and the park ranger?
No, you want to kill or disabled your rapist and escape if you’re being raped. A person who rapes is saying that they feel entitled to do anything with your body that they want to - including murder, more rape, imprisonment, forced pregnancy. Legally you are allowed to defend yourself. Rip out their throats with your hands. Kick out their kneecaps. Do the world a favor and yourself a favor. Self defense isn’t violence.
Channel these women:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Hughes
https://www.wweek.com/news/2016/08/17/a-hit-man-came-to-kill-susan-kuhnhausen-she-survived-he-didnt/
Palestinians can learn a lot from Rhodesia, there they killed the colonizers and took their home back.
And where did it leave them today?
In rhodesia. What kind of a stupid question in that
In Zimbabwe, which has a ton of problems.
Whether those problems are better or worse on the whole from the ones prior to decolonisation I’m sure will be argued back and forth below by people who just read the Wikipedia article.
Lmao you’re saying decolonisation was a bad thing?
It makes sense from the guy living in one of the couple of british coloniea who didn’t decolonise yet
Please highlight where I said that
They switched to a campaign of unarmed resistance, worked internationally to break the regime’s support base and partnered with whites who also wanted the oppression to stop.
So BDS?
They switched to a campaign of unarmed resistance, worked internationally to break the regime’s support base and partnered with whites who also wanted the oppression to stop.
Nope! I mean they did these things, as are Palestinians, but the armed resistance campaign only stopped as part of good faith negotiations with the Apartheid government. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_weSizwe. The armed resistance and peaceful resistance campaigns worked together and supplemented each other to eventually bring an end to Apartheid in South Africa, exactly as we’re seeing in Palestine right now.
Palestinians need normal Israelis on their side.
80% of Jewish Israelis don’t feel anything when shown pictures of starving Palestinians, so “normal” Israelis are clearly in the minority here, which is why peace and kindness alone have not worked and will never work. If you want more numbers that will make you lose your faith in humanity, I recommend this. Note: The link doesn’t contain the 80% thing, but I can provide a source for that if you want. Point being: The things you’re calling for are happening, but for a variety of reasons they’re not enough, so they need to be backed up with armed struggle.
80% of Jewish Israelis don’t feel anything when shown pictures of starving Palestinians, so “normal” Israelis are clearly in the minority here
You went a little bit overboard here with the misinformation propaganda, mate. If you wrote something like “60%” I would’ve probably believed and moved on. But the 80% is such a ridiculously high number that it can only exist in the mind of someone who believes that Israelis are the Devil Incarnate.
So I went looking. The only source I could find for anything close to what you’re describing is the Israeli Democracy Institute’s research
First of all: I love how you people always claim that “citing Israeli sources is stupid” when it comes to Palestine, but you’re all good using it when it suits you.
Second of all: that “80%” number…
The number itself never shows up in any relation to hunger, but let’s assume you rounded it up from something. Let’s look for those bloodthirsty 80% of Israelis who feel nothing when shown a photograph of a starving human…
78% of Jewish Israelis and 22.5% of Arab Israelis think that, given the circumstances of the fighting in Gaza, Israel is making efforts to avoid causing suffering to the Palestinian population there.
Hmm… Not quite. What about:
The majority of Jewish respondents think that, given the circumstances of the fighting in Gaza, Israel is making efforts to avoid causing suffering to the Palestinian population there
Ahh, no there too.
Maybe something about “being troubled” by what’s going on?
On a personal level, the majority in the Center and on the Right (Jewish respondents) say that they are not troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza. On the Left, the majority reported that they are personally troubled by these reports.
Ah, damn! Nowhere near 80% of the entire population, is it? Let’s look further - if they’re so bloodthirsty, they’ll clearly be happy about what the settlers are doing against Palestinians in the West Bank, right?
Regarding violence by groups of settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank / Judea and Samaria, the findings are remarkably similar to those for the previous question—the largest share of respondents think that the authorities are acting too leniently
Oops! They’re against that… Damn! OK, let’s look further, it’s got to be there somewhere, right?
Well, no. You’re just full of shit as there was - fucking obviously - no "showing of pictures of starving children.
The closest we get is the answer to these questions:
Which of the following claims is more correct? (%)
- Even with the restrictions imposed by the fighting, Israel could significantly reduce the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza, but chooses not to.
- Israel’s actions are restricted by the fighting, but it is making substantial efforts to avoid causing unnecessary suffering to Palestinians in Gaza.
With the responses being:
- Among the Israeli Jews: 15% chose (1), 78% chose (2).
- Among the Arab Jews: 66.5% chose (1), 22.5% chose (2).
The closest thing we get to what you claimed is this question:
Personally troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza (Jews; %)
Where 70% of Israelis on the Left side of the political spectrum say… they are absolutely troubled by it. 32% of Centre and 6% of Right are, which - while horrible - is nowhere near “aren’t bothered by a photograph of a starving child”…
First of all: I love how you people always claim that “citing Israeli sources is stupid” when it comes to Palestine, but you’re all good using it when it suits you.
Uh… do you understand the concept of conflict of interest? Citing the Israeli government (especially the IDF) or Zionist Israeli NGOs when they make a pro-Israeli point is stupid because they lie literally all the time. Citing Israeli data or research in general is not, provided it’s coming from a source that hasn’t been routinely making up shit longer than I’ve been alive.
That aside, you should’ve asked for a source and saved yourself the effort. The data is from your link, specifically this passage:
From examining the conduct of the state, we moved to a more personal question, asking: “To what extent are you personally troubled or not troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza?” A very large majority of Jewish respondents reported that they are not so troubled or not at all troubled personally by events in Gaza (79%),
Now to be fair, I misremembered when I said “they feel nothing when shown pictures of starving Palestinians,” I’ll own that, but I believe that 79% of answers to “Personally troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza” being “no” still validates my original point.
Uh… do you understand the concept of conflict of interest? Citing the Israeli government (especially the IDF) or Zionist Israeli NGOs when they make a pro-Israeli point is stupid because they lie literally all the time
Sure. And yet, when I was citing IDI - when they were making pro-Israeli statements (or rather: not flat out anti-Israeli statements) - people were getting up in arms because “it’s an Israeli source, of course they’re lying”.
Now to be fair, I misremembered when I said “they feel nothing when shown pictures of starving Palestinians,” I’ll own that, but I believe that 79% of answers to “Personally troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza” being “no” still validates my original point.
Props to you for owning up to that (I’m 100% serious), but that’s still misrepresenting the actual data.
The first thing they taught me when I was studying Ethnology was: “don’t forget the context in which data is being presented”.
The question is: “To what extent are you personally troubled or not troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population”.
And considering 70% of the population believes the IDF’s reports regarding the situation, the number makes much more sense - they’re not troubled by the reports of famine, because they don’t believe the reports of famine.
So, from your “80% of Israelis feel nothing when shown a starving Palestinian” we end up at “70% of Israelis believe the IDF’s reports and therefore don’t believe there’s a humanitarian crisis happening in Gaza”. And then, when you add to this the fact that literally every single Israeli (other than the Orthodox) has come through the IDF as part of the mandatory training, this makes even more sense - they instinctively refuse to believe that the organisation they’ve been a part of could lie to this extent.
Normal israelis used to be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But regular missile attacks and air raid sirens desensitised them in recent times.
Israelis nearly got rid of Netanyahu, but attacks like Oct 7 galvanised the public behind him.
I lived the resistance of the ANC in the late 80s. Umkhonto weSiswe was a lot less prominent by then since the change in strategy. The remnants of that movement nearly derailed the entire process.
What I am advocating for is that in all similar situations around the world, armed attacks on the civilians of the other side have NEVER resulted in success. Not when there is a power disparity like this. They need to be removed from the strategy.
Normal israelis used to be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.
For all the good that did Palestinians. The fact of the matter is that no serious attempt at a two state solution (if we even consider Oslo that) has come from Israel since Rabin, and we all know how that ended. Israeli “support” for Palestinian liberation is too fickle and too noncommittal to be counted on as a basis for anything, and peace talks between the PA and Israel would remain as farcical as ever even as support for a two-state solution hit its peak (about 70%). As MLK describes in A Letter from a Birmingham Jail, “later” and “if you behave” have always been synonyms for “never” in liberation politics. To repeat: There was only one man willing and capable to make significant “concessions” to end the conflict, and Israelis killed him and elected Hitler for it. By the time “normal Israelis” can get their heads out of their asses and stop their ethnic cleansing project, Palestine won’t exist for them to benefit form this oh so gracious change of heart.
But regular missile attacks and air raid sirens desensitised them in recent times.
Israeli support for a two-state solution peaked after the notoriously violent Second Intifada, so I’m not convinced the amount of violence exercised by Palestinians is playing a significant role here. What’s more likely is that the late 90s and early 2000s were an anomaly and now Israel is experiencing a pendulum swing in the opposite direction, helped along by the rise of fascism in Western-aligned democracies.
Israelis nearly got rid of Netanyahu, but attacks like Oct 7 galvanised the public behind him.
They were going to get rid of him because he’s corrupt, not because support for his agenda had soured. Case in point: They refuse to get rid of him, even though an overwhelming majority wants him to resign, because they’re prioritizing the genocide.
I lived the resistance of the ANC in the late 80s. Umkhonto weSiswe was a lot less prominent by then since the change in strategy.
The late 80s was after most prerequisite progress had already happened and reform was a serious prospect; this is like saying “see? The Good Friday Agreement proves violence was unnecessary in North Irish liberation!” Like, of course violence will be less necessary with serious talks underway; the problem is forcing those talks to happen in the first place. By the way, you said in your original comment that the ANC had stopped its armed struggle, so why are you contradicting yourself?
What I am advocating for is that in all similar situations around the world, armed attacks on the civilians of the other side have NEVER resulted in success.
I’m not advocating attacking civilians specifically, but… North Ireland? What do you think the IRA was doing?
The image you’re pushing of exclusively nonviolent resistance to settler colonialism is simply not backed by reality, as shown by your own example.
You think it’s an execuse that some genocides are not acceptable because the people who denounce them have super brains, but Israeli’s genocide is acceptable because Israelis cannot denounce aparthied and genocide because their brains cannot accept the truth, and so we should let them keep at it? ?!?!
Why is it that 99.9% of Israeli scholars and proffessors are anti Zionism? All their educated are anti Zionist despite how many rockets their country regualrly intercepts from Hamas.
Israelis are indoctrinated with Zionism and Jewish superamcy literally seeing Palestinians as non-humans. They refuse to open their eyes to the truth because they’re too happy dancing next to besieged open-air prison, and enjoy previliges no one on this earth does.
You don’t think unchecked power corrupts?? Well, literally a settler can come up to you, shoot you dead and nothing will happen to him. The court will grant him your mom’s house which your family lived in before their country was even created, then come the next day protected by soliders to kick your family out. This is not an exaggeration, this happens in 2025 in the West Bank where there is no Hamas and the PA work under the IOF to oppress you.
Palestinian Mandelas have rotten in prisons unheard of, and peacful marchings and Palestinain Ghandis were met with bullets and death for decades. South Africa’s aparthied only ended AFTER the world sanctioned them to nonexistance while in Israel’s case, not only there has never been a boycott, the world strongest economies enable them with $billions year after year and the Palestinain cause was dead.
On October-8-2023, the Western democracies of the world including France, Italy, UK, Spain and even the Arab dictatorships were siding with the occupying genocidal aparthied sucking Netynyahu’s dick and it’s on Youtube until this day.
And before Oct-7 2023, it was dead and the Arab dictatorships were normalizing relationships with a genocidal ethnostate under the US approval left and right. You cannot ask people to accept living as slaves when you only have one earthly existance. You either die slowly on your knees in silent, or die on your feet resisting, and they chose the harder bloodier latter because the first has not worked.
“Palestinian Nelson Mandela”
Your comments make complete sense in the context that both sides have been radicalized against each other for the benefit of a very small group of leaders on both sides. They are the real enemies
There will never be peace in the region until the radicalisation cycles can be broken. That’s where their power comes from.
and your comment makes as much sense as the picture in this post… because one side wants a supremacy genocidal aparthied while the other side just want to live.
They both just want to live. It’s the small groups of oligarchs that have convinced them they want other things. Either greater israel, or a Palestine with no Jews.
There is no way either party can get that.
Don’t forget there is a large number of non-jewish people living as Israeli citizens. Almost 30% of the population.
It’s part of the reason I would argue that a one state solution is the better option. A combined nation with one political and legal structure. That way the Current Jewish majority is diluted down to less than 50%. The only way to kill apartheid is to integrate the societies more closely. But that’s unlikely to happen as long as Israel is supported by the US and the local middle eastern nations don’t support the Palestinians though economic support and sanctions.
Palestine without Jews?!?!? There were Jews in Palestine living in peace alongside muslims and christians long before Israel was even created!
Stop the false info that never happened. When has there ever a palestinian doctrine or accord, or government or leader who claimed to want “A pAlIsTiNe wItH nO jEwS” ? What year was that? 1937 British mandate? 1948 Nakba? 1970 David camp? 1993 Oslo accords? In each one of these they ethnically cleansed and occupied more from Palestine and turned Israel into the aparthied it is.
Why are you repeating Zionist bs that is did not happen? Give me your sources, and let’s read them out and discuss them.
Meanwhile, go read the Yinon and Herzl plan, and Ben Gurion letters, which are considered the fathers of zionism. Do these names sound Semetic to you btw if you even know what that word means?
Just google this shit and read what Zionism was built on from the start and it is WHAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN DONE. We see the genocidal aparthied on video! It’s not theoritical!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan
https://www.freesuriyah.eu/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/HerzlJFischmannJandYinon-TheGreaterIsrael.pdf
Just watch these by overzealots please because the history I read and know 10 years ago seems like news to you. we are not on the same page:
Part 1:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nXujfBBfvXU
Part 2:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D1gSrckT5G4
Again respectfully I’m ignorant about so much history about so many parts of this world. I need to watch and read just like you need to at least watch these two parts and tell me if you still think Palestinian Mandelas and Palestinian Ghandis were the solution. Also tell me when and where the fuck is that Palestinain doctrine that started killing Jews and demanded Palestine without Jews.
Netanyahu is still unpopular and faces prosecution if the war ever stops. Israelis just support Genocide because it’s gotten more and more religiously conservative over time and their religion states:
Deuteronomy 20: 16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
This is why the only chance they have is if they both give up their religions. The oligarchs are just using it to justify the violence. They need to be strictly secular. No religion in government, courts or schools.
The struggle in South Africa wasn’t a struggle against Genocide which has always been Netanyahu’s goal and is in the final stages of being enacted. If and when the international community comes around, there will be no one left to save.
Before this latest conflict, they had a lot more in common.
Netanyahu wasted no time capitalizing on Oct 7 to enact his plan for staying in power.
It really has been a failure/success of propaganda and international politics.
77 years of being attacked from all sides. What would be your limit? It seems like every time Israel gets fed up with the attacks, the wars. the rockets, and the guerilla attacks. They lose their shit and start to push Gaza into the sea. Then America or NATO step in and persuade them to compose themselves and stop. Every time Israel is attacked they fight back and gain more land. I ran out of any compassion for the people among the aggressors in the 90’s. It seems like they would have done something about it by now rather than being complicit.
The only way there is going to be any peace in Gaza is if Hamas is driven out of Gaza for good. Hamas could do the Nobel thing and fuck off, but they’ve spent decades using the people of Gaza as their shields while Iran and the other surrounding counties use Hamas as a tool to strike at Israel. I’ve stopped caring. This is going to end. One way or another. I say let Israel end the war. They seem to be really good at it after all these years of practice.
You mean 77 years after the displacement of 713 000 Palestinians in 1948 and the Israeli operation codenamed “cast thy bread” in which the main objective was to poison all wells in Palestine to ensure there’s nothing to return to and secure the much needed land expansion. Or did you mean October 1956? Oh wait, no… Israel was the aggressor there. More land. And like any typical abuser, they’ll take on the role of the victim whenever anyone calls them out on their shitty behaviour.
you mean 77 years of your neighbours being upset at you for constant warcrimes and a genocide?
yhea, that’s a you problem
The only way there will ever be peace in Palestine is when Israel is abolished. Israel could do the human thing and fuck off, instead they commit systemic acts of terror, rape, and murder of innocent children, women, and men.
77 years of being attacked from all sides.
Because they’ve been committing all manners of atrocities against Palestinians for more than 77 years. Name one war Israel fought (edit: clarification) which started by them being unfairly attacked. If there are many, pick the most egregious example.
It seems like they would have done something about it by now rather than being complicit.
Every time Israel is attacked they fight back and gain more land.
You mean every time Israel finds an excuse to attack they get more land? Yes, that’s how colonization worke,
Complicit in… what? Resistance? Trying to gain the human rights they’ve been denied for generations? What the heck do you want them to do instead?
The only way there is going to be any peace in Gaza is if Hamas is driven out of Gaza for good.
Cue, the West Bank.
PS: I didn’t comment on all the misinformation because it doesn’t excuse what you’re saying even if it was true. Oh, and also: Reported for genocide apologia.
Guess what. Israel exists. Before they owned the land someone else did. And someone else did before that. And on, and on, back to the Palaeolithic era. You and I arguing in some obscure corner of the internet no one will ever see isn’t going to bring about world peace. Israel fought to exist, and they’ve succeeded at it. The aggressors who keep attacking them after they have been told to stop… they may not exist much longer. They sent paragliders into Israel and killed people two years ago. You saying what is happening today is an atrocity and me saying is self defense isn’t going to change a damn thing. All we are doing is rightly stating our opinions on the situation. None of them are likely the true facts. The fact is that victor is going to write the history. I’m saying it’s going to be Israel.
The land was bought to the British and the brits stole it in the first place idiot
The only way there is going to be any peace in Gaza is if Hamas is driven out of Gaza for good.
The people of Gaza, even those who have turned to violence and extremism, are native to that land. The majority of Israelis are not. So the fairer solution for the conflict would be for the settlers to go back wherever they’re from, and leave the locals alone.
“BuT tHeY aRe CoLoNiZeRs AnD iSrAeL sHoUlDn’T eXiSt!”
Cool. So every country is gonna give back their land to the indigenous peoples they took it from, right? Right?!
We can start with America and work our way down the list from there.
Someday people will figure out that all of this, all of it, everything we have, is built with the blood of innocents. And we only have three options now: start repairing these relationships through kindness, grace, and good works; watch one side wipe out the other; or fuel the ongoing violence in perpetuity.
That’s all we have left and I personally prefer the first option but so, so many people opt for 2 or 3 that it makes me numb.
We can start with America and work our way down the list from there.
I wish. And while we’re at it, tell the British Museum to return the stuff they stole.
BuT tHeY aRe CoLoNiZeRs AnD iSrAeL sHoUlDn’T eXiSt
Cool. So every country is gonna give back their land to the indigenous peoples they took it from, right? Right?!
First: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Back. Second: Israeli oppression isn’t limited to the past; it’s an omnipresent facet of Palestinian life even when there’s no full-blown genocide going on. Israel shouldn’t exist because it’s presently a colonizer state actively doing colonization; at least states like America have evolved past their settler colonialist roots to some extent. Third: What kindness do you want the West Bank to offer Israel? Tell me in detail what you’re proposing here.
-
I know. I’m in favor, to the degree that it’s possible and non-punitive. But until we’re prepared to do it at home we cannot be demanding it abroad
-
I fully concur that Israel is an oppressive state and deserves sanctions. Even more so now. Netenyahu is a criminal and so is most of his cabinet. I won’t equivocate on that. The hasidics especially are despicable. I just know there are a whole lot of reasonable people living in Israel who ought not lose their nationality at this stage
-
first of all I never said which had to come from where or when. But if you want to be serious, them I expect kindness in the form of ousting Hamas. That’s it. Get rid of the people whose charter is the destruction of the Jewish state in favor of their own.
Edit: call it performative, but you were at 0 votes on your reply and I’m using my vote to put you at +1 because you are engaging in genuine dialogue, so far
lose their nationality
I cannot imagine anything more trivial than that.
But until we’re prepared to do it at home we cannot be demanding it abroad
Why…? It’s possible (and, in fact, imperative) to confront justice at home and abroad.
I just know there are a whole lot of reasonable people living in Israel who ought not lose their nationality at this stage
I mean, I don’t think they’ll be especially hurt if the citizenship portion of their passport changes from “Israel” to “Palestine” or “Israel but without Apartheid.” “Kick them all out” isn’t a common proposal at all in serious policy discussions; hell it’s not even what Hamas is pushing for.
But if you want to be serious, them I expect kindness in the form of ousting Hamas.
Hamas doesn’t have a significant presence in the West Bank, which is why I specified it: There’s (essentially) no Hamas in the West Bank, but they’re still being driven from their lands day by day. It’s a perfect natural experiment on what you can expect without Hamas (and without armed resistance, more broadly), and the results aren’t what you proposed.
Get rid of the people whose charter is the destruction of the Jewish state in favor of their own.
As of at least 2017, that is not necessarily the case, but also: Why is it wrong to attempt to depose the state whose central motivation and ideological basis is oppressing and ethnically cleansing them? If deposing Hamas was a realistic solution to anything, there would’ve been some progress towards peace in the West Bank rather than ever-escalating ethnic cleansing. The reason Hamas isn’t being deposed is that there’s no reason for a Palestinian (or, frankly, anyone else) to believe their liberation will come without armed struggle. Israel has been shown kindness repeatedly in the past but completely failed to reciprocate it.
-
