Meme or whatever, but fuckwits that keep cats outdoors (and cat hoarders) are the main reason why my charitable donations to animal groups focus on spay/neuter programs rather than shelters. I know the animals in shelters need help too, but reducing the inflow of animals into the shelters helps them as well.
And reduces hazards to wildlife from cats, whether they be outdoor pets, strays, abandoned, or feral.
And reduces demand for meat-based cat foods.
It’s the most efficient way to help that I can think of.
my environmental science teacher spent an hour talking about what apex predators cats are and how terrible outdoor cats are….
they pretty much kill for fun, all day….
if you declaw your cat (which is evil) and put a bell on it, then the last thing the bird will hear is a bell ringing while being batted to death.
they just decimate the local wildlife.if you declaw your cat
declawing your cat is like cutting last segment of humans finger. please don’t do that, it is a straight up torture, far worse than cutting ears, and should be illegal.
Didn’t seem like they were advocating for that, just using it as an example
it should be illegal, that’s just an example of what people say as an excuse for why it’s okay for their cat to be outside
Arm-wrestling meme: https://imgflip.com/i/aew8xw
they kill all sorts of furry creatures too, but yeah there are more bird people than mole people
Dude. Its obviously in a rural setting. Those cats are all oitdoor cats. Its how you keep the mouse population down. These aren’t sit in the house all day cats. Farm cats are working cats.
I mean thsoe cats seem to be feed cats but that’s beside the point.
Barn cats are actually pretty important. rodents can be terrible, and spread disease due to the conditions they often live in. Cats help with snakes and certain bugs as well (larger bugs they can swat at. Usually just kill them and play with them, but I’ve seen cats eat them too)
But is still absolutely essential to spay/neuter barn cats, and provide them with safe places to get away from coyotes. Spay/neuter is to prevent them from making more cats, which can quickly get out of hand. For getting away from coyotes, raised areas they can quickly climb to are good. Yes coyotes can jump, but I’ve never seen a coyote climb. Their front legs just dont bend the right way to let them grab the tree
Curious why you responding to my comment specifically rather than the dozen or so other comments similarly condemning outdoor cats.
Is it because I chose to put my money where my mouth is?
Yah, yours was the top comment haha.
It’s probably just because yours is at the top lol
Oh, a classic. Haven’t seen this one in a while.
What’s wrong your Internet’s been down for a few weeks?
The neighbor is doing the lord’s work sustaining the wildlife and controlling cat overpopulation.
Parents be like: “Oops, my child just died, good thing I made a few backups”
Go back far enough and yes, this is exactly how people thought.
Childhood mortality rates even like 150 years ago were atrocious.
My mom only had 2, but she still considers me the basically the backup in case my older brother fucks up.
Don’t forget, potential kidney donor.
Shit like this is why it’s so hard for you to adopt an animal btw. Shelters have no idea if you’re a coyote feeder
evidently not, over there
Anyone who keeps outdoor cats in coyote territory is just an asshole. Can confirm. Do live in coyote territory.
You can’t “can confirm” yourself! What is this lawlessness??
evidently not, over there.
People who have outdoor cats are facilitating the extinction of birds. I’m completely serious. Domestic cats kill billions of birds annually.
Yeah. The coyotes are just doing course correction for nature.
It’s not possible to measure how much wildlife specifically domestic cats kill so that statistic is actually from all cats, which include strays. I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that this means you should leave your cat out but it’s important to be accurate.
“Domestic cat” is referring to the species Felis catus. Strays and ferals are still the same species, just at different levels of human habituation.
Ah, shit. You’re right.
Anyone who keeps outdoor cats is just an asshole.
FTFY
We had farm cats in coyote territory without issue. We never lost one to coyotes to my knowledge. You just need to ensure that you also have coyote deterants like an assault donkey or a llama. Having a big guard dog also helps. Basically, anything that would protect your livestock will also protect the cats. If there are enough threats to coyotes in the area then the coyotes will steer clear.
In our case it probably also helped that mama farm cat was a monsterous maine coon who I once saw literally beat the shit out of a full grown rotweiler that got too close to her kittens. It wouldn’t surprise me if she had been hunting coyotes for sport.
that mama farm cat was a monsterous maine coon who I once saw literally beat the shit out of a full grown rotweiler
video pls
No video was taken unfortunately because it was completely unexpected.This mama cat had had a few litters of kittens at this point and was always fine with our dogs being around them. She would sometimes bring them over to one of our dogs when she wanted a break. She was a very chill cat in general.
One day my sister brought her dog over who was about a 2 year old rotweiler. So they were fully grown but still had that curious puppy personality. Mama cat had recently had a litter of kittens which were young enough that they were still in the house in a padded laundry basket. My sisters dog was bound and determined to investigate these kittens. Being that mama cat didn’t know this dog as well we knew that probably wasn’t going to go over well, but the dog was determined enough that we figured we let them try and let them learn their own lesson when mama cat swatted them away. Well the dog went in for a sniff as mama cat was laying nearby watching. To our surprise she didn’t seem to care for about 30 sec or so. Then very suddenly she morphed into a ball of fur, claws, and teeth and latched onto that poor dogs back. At that point the dog started panicking and screaming while sprinting around the house literally crapping theirself in fear while mama cat continued to give chase and maul them. We oppened the front door of the house to give the dog somewhere to escape to and the dog ran outside. Mama cat chased that poor dog around the property for a bit before chasing it up the driveway (rural property with a mile long driveway) and out of sight. About 5 min later mama cat came trotting back like nothing had happened. About 2 hours later my sisters dog started very timidly making their way back down the driveway towards the house. Surprisingly after that day mama cat and my sisters dog got along perfectly fine.
So they were fully grown but still had that curious puppy personality.
hey that’s me :3
We’ve got outdoor cats in coyote country. Haven’t had a problem, honestly I’m more afraid of a great horned owl moving in. We’ve got a dog that barks a lot. Also sometimes our neighbor will shoot a coyote and leave it out there to scare the others off. But the yipping and howling is why I wear earplugs when I go camping, or put a fan of during summer months.
Also sometimes our neighbor will shoot a coyote and leave it out there to scare the others off.
Fuck that guy… in particular
I live in Western NY state, and even we have coyotes now. Not numerous but noticeable. They’ve extended their range beyond what you might think from the Roadrunner cartoons.
You likely don’t have any coyotes over there anymore. You have coywolves.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coywolves-are-taking-over-eastern-north-america-180957141/
This is a larger species that has the body size closer to a wolf. They hunt in urban and forested areas and are really good at taking out cats. They are also large enough to get deer.
Could be. I was on my bike, and they ran as soon as they saw me. Slightly larger than a German Shepherd but with a different body shape and longer legs. There’s plenty of wild and domestic prey for them along the trail I ride, so not surprising they’d be hunting there. I’m usually out before sunrise and see a lot of wildlife that most people don’t get to see.
Another part of their success is how totally and completely they avoid human notice in most cases.
saying so in front of the daughter is low key savage.
But it always boggles my mind when adults are shocked and horrified that predators …predate. Especially non-vegans.
Like Bro. Hommie needs to eat, and they can’t live off beans. (well, maybe coyotes can.)
I’m glad I wasn’t Disney’d in childhood. Better to know reality, than be deluded, made fragile and crippled by reality. Face the horror. Stop lying to children. Children become adults.
Grow up on a farm and you really have no delusions about how the world works. Although I did think teachers lived at the school so I was unclear with how Mrs Thatcher got pregnant.
I mean you grew up believing that it’s healthier to eat meat rather than just more profitable to sell it, or that it is morally defensible in any way to create an intelligent creature and then force it into a state of utter lifelong dependency just so that you can exploit its biological processes, so I wouldn’t be so sure about that “no delusions” thing. You’re on your own supply.
that it is morally defensible in any way to create an intelligent creature and then force it into a state of utter lifelong dependency just so that you can exploit its biological processes
Interestingly, I don’t have issue with people who hunt for meat (provided they follow generally accepted responsible hunting practices), but I have a big fucking issue with animal agriculture.
The quoted section is the distinguishing factor. Creating sentient life for the explicit purpose of exploiting it really rubs me the wrong way.
I mean you grew up believing that it’s healthier to eat meat rather than just more profitable to sell it
Seriously I’ve read this about 10 times and I still have no idea what you’re going on about. It’s healthier to eat meat than sell it, what?
it is morally defensible in any way to create an intelligent creature
What absolute grammar hellhole is this? What animal are you thinking of?
Humans are part of nature too, and we have our animal instincts same as any other animal. Only thing that differs is our capacity to self-reflect and exercise agency over our place in the ecosystem. What matters is that we have respect for life and don’t take it for granted. I agree that factory farms, hunting for sport or luxury goods like furs, etc. is wrong, but I don’t see a problem with a small farm raising some animals as long as they’re treated with respect and given a comfortable life. All animals - including us - are dependent on others for survival.
You kidding me? I only eat meat because it is cooked, and is what is available. I tried to secretly go vegan.
how Mrs Thatcher got pregnant
Presumably, alcohol involved.
Although, that too likely still naive.
… The perversions in the crooked cabal… they’re into a lot of really really vile stuff.
[Edit: Oh… or are you talking about a different Mrs Thatcher than
?]Presumably, alcohol involved.
Oh we love you Mrs Thatcher, like your old man likes a brew;
such a lad your husband Denis when he’s had a drink or two.
Sure he’ll take a pint of Murphy’s and a glass of Irish Mist
and because he sleeps with you each night, no wonder he’s always pissed.
Yeah it was a different Mrs Thatcher, and to be clear that might not have been her actual name, I’m just coming up with something that sounds appropriately similar. I’ve subsequently seen pictures of her in the class yearbook. She was really really hot, when she was my teacher she was younger than I am now so I absolutely did not appreciate her attractiveness.
There were a lot of teachers that were married, and that in itself didn’t make sense to me. Not because I thought they lived at school, but because they had such awful attitudes that I couldn’t imagine somebody agreeing to spend their entire lives with them.
Then I grew up and realized that their husbands were probably awful, too. Either that, or the teachers took all their frustrations out on their students and had happier home lives. Either way, I still find it pretty sad. I know patience is a virtue, but you should know what you’re getting into when you choose to become a teacher. Shitty teachers create traumatized students. If you don’t think you can hack it, please, for the sake of all that is good, consider a different career.
Oh no she was wonderful, we got to hear all the hot gossip from her. None of the teachers liked Mrs Hall, she was the antichrist apparently. Even as a kid I could tell she hated children. God knows why she became a teacher.
Meanwhile Mrs Thatcher had a rabbit, a classroom pet. Oh it was wonderful, I’m not sure I necessarily learnt all that much from her, but I really liked her.
You think vegans are more likely to be surprised that predators eat other animals? I don’t see the relationship there.
We have a really small wolf population here in Sweden, so small that we’ve had to fortify it on multiple occasions. Even so, you have these useless careless animal keepers that get really up in arms when a wolf (or a fox, even) goes and kills some of their animals, even though they often don’t even have proper fencing set up.
It’s ridiculous, because there are organisations that will help you fence your animals, there’s monetary aid to be had for it too. Not keeping your animals safe is a choice, and I don’t think it’s fair to put the blame on the wild animals.
Even so, there will be animals lost to predators, and that’s just part of the business. If you don’t want to lose animals, don’t get them.
I think they were saying that it’s more baffling to them when non-vegans are shocked by predators predating, which scans with my own experience.
My ex’s mum used to regularly eat meat, but would become very upset (even bursting into tears occasionally) if you ever reminded her that the animals she was eating were…well, animals. I can’t fathom the amount of effort it must take to maintain that level of cognitive dissonance.
I wish I were a vegetarian, but my circumstances are such that it’s not feasible for me to fully make that change right now. I do feel uncomfortable with the ethical implications of eating meat, but I’d rather feel uncomfortable about it than to shove it out of my mind as some people prefer to.
I guess I just don’t see what vegans have to do with it if they’re essentially saying “it baffles me when meat eaters are surprised by predators predating.”
saying so in front of the daughter is low key savage.
Why?
Don’t play stupid. You can disagree with their opinion without pretending you don’t comprehend why they’d have that opinion.
Because the consequences were instant for the guy feeding cats to coyotes, and saying so in front of his daughter wasn’t really necessary?
Making children cry isn’t big or clever?
It was her father who made her cry with his actions, not the stranger saying them out loud.
…but then why did she cry in response to the stranger’s comment? Logic doesn’t seem to be adding up.
Because he revealed these actions to her? Your point is?
Assume there is a murderer who runs around killing people by skinning and burning them alive. You watch the TV news and feel sick. Is it TV news fault now? That’s a flawed logic.
I hate that passive aggression is seen as more acceptable than simple, more honest insults on most Lemmy instances. Just feeds the bullshit asymmetry principle.
“Out
sidoor cats” shouldn’t be a thing, imo.Edit: didn’t realize I totally messed up the word, “outdoor”.
In Australia? Definitely.
In the US? IDK probably?Somewhere like Istanbul? Its controversial but probably not.Edit: Technically speaking ‘outsidoor’ cats don’t exist?
LOL I didn’t even notice my typo. I wrote outside cat, then thought I fixed it to outdoor.
Can places still keep them for pest control? What’s wrong with an outdoor cat?
EDIT: It’s so weird getting downvoted for a genuine question. See y’all in the next thread about why isn’t Lemmy more popular.
They kill a lot of wildlife, which in many settings is not desirable.
Here’s the often cited study from 2013 that estimates outdoor cats kill billions of birds and mammals annually in the US alone:
Even if they don’t kill, say, a bird, a cat’s mouth and teeth are loaded with bacteria. It generally doesn’t harm humans that much, but birds and small mammals stand a good chance of dying from infection if they’re bitten or scratched up by a cat.
A cat’s bite can absolutely hurt humans. That bacteria can be lethal.
If there’s a setting where cats can survive and kill “wildlife”, I would push back against the use of the term “wildlife”, because in order for this to be true humans have eliminated most predator species in the “biome”. All I hear when people in a city say they don’t want feral cats is they want cute birds at their feeders.
In an area rural enough to have coyotes…feral cats can be a positive addition to the biome so you don’t get overrun by rodents. Birds don’t have to worry because the cats need to stay close to cover due to various predators.
You clearly have done zero research on the topic and are simply telling us what you would like to be true. “Common sense” is what you use when you don’t know better. But in this case, data exists, and you don’t need to be speculating about things you don’t know about.
You didn’t say anything.
Feel free to engage with my reply.
I can translate for you!
But in this case, data exists, and you don’t need to be speculating about things you don’t know about.
translation: shut up
Someone pointing out logical fallacies is most definitely them saying something.
Unfortunately, often the willfully ignorant and those who live lifes free of logic cannot understand these words and decide they are meaningless.
They also tend to think people smart than them are dumber than them, but that’s often a defense mechanism over a paper thin ego.
Man, mind like an ocean indeed… Mostly empty, with a few bits of bacteria and just enough sentient meat to function.
Cats have no natural predators most likely wherever you are, so no. If you live in Turkey, or around there, fine. That’s where they (rather, their ancestors) are native. They do have natural predators. If you live anywhere else then this excuse is bullshit just to make yourself feel better for being a shitty pet owner. It’s bad for their health and for the environment. You aren’t doing them or anything else any favors by not doing your job as a caretaker.
large owls will happily predate on cats. They’re like flying cats that are even more Murder Hobo-ish.
I said natural predators. Sure, there are still things that will eat them, but nothing evolved to hunt them.
Owls are badass.
That’s something these anti cat people can’t reconcile…they live in a city that’s become a pretty finch paradise because they drove all the owls out when they paved their nests. Owls would have a smorgasbord…kill far more pretty birds than cats…if they could nest in parks.
I’m not really pro cat…I’m actually anti people. I just think it’s dumb for people to think cats are a serious problem because they watched some doc sponsored by a bird watchers society.
You know cats are here because of people, right? They, along with our cities, are issues we crested.
I’m not anti-cat. I’m anti-destruction-of-the-environment. Cats are our responsibility, and fault, as much as the destruction our cities and roads are.
You’re projecting.
I live in a rural area where there are no outdoor cats or dogs because they’re instantly killed by predators.
I don’t live in a city that has an artificial environment with no predators created by the presence of humans. People who live in cities who are opposed to outdoor cats just can’t stomach having predators in their midst, to put it bluntly. A good chunk of the birds and rodents they kill are also imported species. Comparing any of these interactions to something happens in the wild is naive.
Where the hell do you live that dogs are getting killed by predators instantly? Do you mean like small dogs? I could see that.
The biggest predator of them all: automobiles
Canada.
Sigh I suppose I should have said most dogs…not dogs bred to kill wolves and fight bears, for example.
Drunk neighbors if I had to base it on my experiences living in the country…
Seriously. People are claiming to be worried about biomes in the middle of a city where the only lawns allowed are grass and pavement and the town is bombed with bug killers every year and mice are dealt with by having them killed indiscriminately by pest control. It’s actually illegal in my city to plant edible plants on our forested parts because of some bullshit about drawing homeless populations.
But yeah the outdoor cats are the issue. That shit ain’t even close to the top on my triage.
deleted by creator
I think I’ve read that they can really hurt the local wildlife as they’re excellent hunters. Also they poop in sandboxes and you can get really sick from it.
And cats hunt for fun, not just food.
Hunt for practice.
On a farm you pretty much need a cat or you’ll be overrun by mice.
What you call a pest, the ecosystem calls native wildlife. The “pest control” is what’s wrong.
Alrighty then!
Offer yourself to the rats!
It’s cruel to the cat. There is no shortage of outdoor hazards that can injure then or make them sick. It’s also very bad for biodiversity. Domestic cats alone are responsible for the endangerment and extinction of hundreds of species. There are other, better, more targeted ways to deal with pests. Do not keep your pets outside.
That argument is made by a particular group. It’s really important to include the context of when cats are “harmful” to the wildlife. It can only be in a setting where humans have completely modified the environment…**then** you create a scenario where cats become just another pest species. It should go without saying that when the anti cat people get all the feral cats eliminated…then many other pest species with a different set of problems come back. What it comes down to is which pest species you prefer.
Anyways…that’s all off topic because this post was about a cats being eating by coyotes….which are also both pest species. But from experience in a setting where you have pest weasels, raccoons, skunks, weasels, foxes, etc…it’s preferable to have cats…because if you don’t have enough coyotes a skunk is going to move under your house if you don’t have a cat. It’s all the weird version of the animal kingdom that humans create around us.
Tell me you cannot even conceive of an “invasive species” without telling me you are incapable of understanding that basic concept.
Feel free to read and respond to my comment rather than lob insults.
If the concept of an invasive species is an insufficient response in your eyes, then I maintain that my prior response is not insult, but observation.
Humans are an invasive species, and many of the species that cats kill are also invasive.
My comments are criticizing the notion that cats are somehow uniquely or critically dangerous. If it were up to me I’d get rid over all the imported species, including humans.
Cats are dangerous to birds that show up at bird feeders because humans killed all their natural predators like owls. It’s not a huge issue…it’s a symptom of a much larger problem.
I wholeheartedly agree that humans are invasive, but one need only look at a place like New Zealand to see how one of homo sapiens’ most environmentally-damaging qualities is that it brings other invasive species with it. Treating birds at bird feeders as if they’re all invasive is deeply reductive and objectively wrong. Animals migrate in some cases hundreds of miles in a day.
Cats are universally deeply invasive once feral, and humans letting those cats (and dogs) get out has been the primary threat to the wildlife of New Zealand. Not humanity itself. This is almost universally true on any island, from islands that have been completely taken over by rats, to the Spaniards’ tendency to leave behind feral hogs that outcompete even the most deadly of predators within a couple generations. But in only one case does everyone treat this like it’s some endearing quality: outdoor cats.
Just because there’s a much bigger problem doesn’t mean that the small one doesn’t exist. That’s just whataboutism. ALL of these need to be dealt with, but you know which one is the easiest to tackle FIRST? (Hint: it’s not the pigs)
I never treated all or any birds at bird feeders as invasive. I said that they have no predators because we killed them all. I haven’t seen any data on how many birds a cat can kill vs an owl…I suspect an owl is more effective. I haven’t seen any data that suggests that cats are threatening any bird populations.
It just sounds like something that need to be managed…and we should consider something other than the cute birds we want at bird feeders.
Humans brought rodents, and killed their predators. Are cats killing more rats and mice than a weasel could? Unlikely.
Some edge case about a cat wiping out a bird population on an island 100 years ago doesn’t interest me.
It can only be in a setting where humans have completely modified the environment…then you create a scenario where cats become just another pest species.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. But, like most suburbs do in fact host some songbirds- especially during migration. Parks, wooded areas, etc. Cats don’t really care if it’s a suburban park or a shitty nature preserve that apartments maintain because they bought the land but it’s wetlands (and set it up as a sort of “we bait deer and racoons and shit
so your kids can catch rabies and other exciting diseasespet them.”There are very, very few places that humans haven’t modified in some way. and I’m not sure they even exist at all.
There’s peregrine falcons that hunt doves in downtown minneapolis (and they’re super fun to watch if you can catch them. Animals can and do adapt to humanity’s bullshit. feral cats are more of that bullshit.
Cats should absolutely not be let out. it’s not safe for the cat (Coyotes, owls. diseases. cars. Just getting stuck. and enviromental exposure.) and it’s not safe for other wildlife (songbirds, rodents. etc,)
Not a lot to disagree with here, except your conclusion is really out of place.
Those falcons don’t really hunt doves…they mostly hunt imported pigeons…and that’s not a unique thing…I live in Canada where we have far more exciting prey birds in every city.
Anyways. People in cities get really weird about focusing on things that really aren’t significant…this kind of reminds me of wind turbines killing birds. Sure…it’s true…but neither cats nor wind turbines could possibly threaten birds. What threatens birds more profoundly is driving a gas vehicular or subscribing to Netflix so you can watch a documentary about how evil cats are. Or…living in a city in the first place.
I could wax philosophical and wonder if it’s a general aversion to witnessing predation that makes people anti cat…but it’s probably just people who have bird feeders being really loud. Hope you win, and have fun with all the rats…another totally natural species lol.
Your room-temperature IQ is showing.
Such nuance.
Lots of claims from you in here about being personally fine with allowing invasives into your area, but is there any researched evidence for it?
I never said I was “personally fine with invasive species” you’re projecting.
Looks like he’s just trying to steelman the things you say into something that is at least logically defensible.
Someone gets it
Pretty much. To me it’s such a “boutique” opinion to get outraged about how dangerous cats are…without any context or consideration for the context in which cats exist in the first place.
Like…it’s akin to a first world problem…a bunch of people saw a documentary about cats, felt that they had some measure of power to deal with cats…and haven’t considered any of the major problems created by routines that they participate in that actually mean something.
Yes, cats are terrible. But killing all the owls (another commenter brought this up) and putting up all the bird feeders that gave the cats so much easy “prey” is also worth considering.
The weird thing is the OP is about cats getting killed by coyotes…who are a much more dangerous pest species (in the contexts that they’re eating cats) than the cats.
I’m definitely overthinking this…but my angle is I’m a rural person who has livestock and rodent problems. A much different scenario to somebody who lives in an apartment and got radicalized by some amateur birder who hates cats because they don’t want to leave the city to see birds
You are right. It’s why many cities will release neutered feral cats to handle large rat populations.
I love memes where coyotes and cats are replaced with different things here.
“And then people accuse me of being socially challenging!”
I’m socially challenging because I don’t understand the liar’s game and don’t play along because I wasn’t aware I was supposed to, so they get caught in a lie.
… What?
Not OP, but I think I understand what they’re saying.
Some people think lying is just a part of life. Especially those who think, “Rules for me, not for thee.” Most people won’t call out someone in a lie, for the sake of politeness. But that “politeness” is an aspect of social skills.
I was an honest, literal-minded kid with underdeveloped social skills. I had no qualms about calling a spade a spade. Think of the story where the kid calls out, “The emperor has no clothes!” Pointing out dishonesty makes sense for such kids, but doing so also breaks unspoken social rules.
Showed this to my family, the missus remarked that maybe the dude should keep coyotes instead of cats.
Culture shock when I first encountered this meme almost all of it was subbed with politics
If that were true it’s actually the shelter feeding cats to the foxes.
Yep. The shelter should have cut him off pretty quickly.
Coyotes. Dramatically more annoying little nerds.
